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I'm not so sure the 'blood on the rocks' isn't a red herring any more. Terez Send a noteboard - 13/10/2010 06:23:18 PM
The idea that the blood on the rocks is actually the blood of the Aiel, or Luc, or Galad, or Perival Mantear, is a common suggestion of noobs. Well, not Perival usually, I admit. But I have always argued against it mostly because I think it would be cheap and lame for Rand to get off so easy. He's the one that is supposed to make the sacrifice to save the world.

But now that I am thinking he will die elsewhere - according to RJ, Shayol Ghul is absolutely the worst possible place that Rand could die, as the Dark One has easier access to souls at Shayol Ghul - then the idea of the blood on the rocks being a red herring is implicit already.

I'm not entirely sure it won't be Rand's blood after all, but I'm not so inclined to believe that it must be Rand's blood any more. I do like the idea of the Aiel and the Tinkers and the Ogier seed-singing the Patter shut, though I'm not sold on it yet. But it's one possibility for what could happen, and in that case, Rand is only really necessary to teach them the songs, right? Maybe to shield them from the Dark One's touch. In that way, it would be a return to the First Covenant. It even makes me wonder if Someshta is a Hero of the Horn. RJ says Nym are not reborn as Nym, so it's possible. Nynaeve could rip him out too.

Okay, that is a little off-topic. But you get the picture.

I believe that solid-appearing arguments can be made for Rand dying either before the Last Battle or at the Last Battle, but I think they only appear equally solid because of the fact that the latter is just SO OBVIOUS. Of course he's going to die at the Last Battle. I think that a closer examination of the evidence shows he has to die before. Nicola's Foretelling along with the Wise Ones' dream - the future teetering on the edge of a blade, and the scale tilting first one way and then the other - IMO that is too dire to refer to the continuing conflict with the Seanchan, and Nicola's 'dead yet lives' is confirmation that Rand's death has already occurred.

That also goes along with the idea that RJ liked to do what people do not expect, and that Rand would die at the Last Battle is perhaps the most supported expectation in the series...but all of the actual support for it is ambiguous. Has anyone ever read a series where the Chosen One dies before fulfilling all of the prophecies? I admit I am not all that well-read, but I have a feeling that this is what RJ was going for.

... Egwene not recognizing the dying man doesn't necessarily mean it's not Rand as he originally looked, but I'd bet against it simply because she was able to identify Rand by name in all other Dreams about him. I can't think of any other Dream of hers in which she didn't identify the subject of the Dream by name, but the subject could be Rand, or any of the 3 ta'veren for that matter.

It's not that I'm set on Rand having an appearance change. It's just that I've given a lot of thought over the years to all of the various prophecies, visions, etc. related (or maybe related) to Rand and the end of the series, and consequently the appearance-change idea has had a long time to percolate. I'm open to changing my mind on the idea, it's just unlikely to happen instantaneously (unless I read something relevant in the books, of course). You're theory has given me a lot more to think about, though, and that's always good.

One problem that occurs to me about your theory is ... if you're right, then sometime after Rand lives again, he will end up spilling his blood at Shayol Ghul, in the Pit of Doom, to save mankind, according to the K-cycle prophecy. But, he won't actually die again (presumably), which means everyone's assumption that the Dragon Reborn will die at SG to save mankind is wrong. That just doesn't seem right, to me. I understand why you think that though, as you explained in your theory, and I don't have a good counter-explanation at this point. That's another issue I struggle with myself - when Rand dies. Is it after the Battle of Caemlyn, or at SG? Solid arguments can be made for both cases, I think.

BTW, I completely agree with you that "2 women with Rand + Callandor" is a red herring.

I also agree that Rand faking his death cannot satisfy the "to live you must die" info from the Aelfinn. Rand actually has to die, not just appear to die.
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attn: Etzel re: theories on the fulfillment of Rand's death prophecies - 12/10/2010 12:35:42 AM 1422 Views
You never noticed the Noteboard feature, did you? - 12/10/2010 03:37:53 AM 670 Views
Actually, I made it a survey. - 12/10/2010 03:42:16 AM 601 Views
Horn Double Death - 12/10/2010 05:30:47 AM 859 Views
If he dies when called by the Horn... - 12/10/2010 05:34:56 AM 541 Views
Re: If he dies when called by the Horn... - 12/10/2010 05:53:53 AM 563 Views
Re: If he dies when called by the Horn... - 12/10/2010 05:55:28 AM 572 Views
I just don't see that as Nynaeve's "area of expertise" - 13/10/2010 10:09:39 PM 617 Views
Nynaeve was the one who witnessed the weave, not Egwene. - 14/10/2010 12:38:14 AM 593 Views
Another Variation on the Horn - 13/10/2010 04:28:38 AM 561 Views
There's also the "ripped from TAR after death" theory, ala Birgitte (re how Rand lives again). - 12/10/2010 04:37:26 PM 682 Views
That be my theory - 12/10/2010 04:45:55 PM 693 Views
and from all other people - 12/10/2010 05:33:45 PM 790 Views
And your point is? *NM* - 12/10/2010 05:35:35 PM 293 Views
It's not specifically your theory. or a theory that you thought of first..... *NM* - 13/10/2010 04:32:48 PM 287 Views
Nobody said I thought of it first. - 13/10/2010 04:36:45 PM 529 Views
Re: Nobody said I thought of it first. - 13/10/2010 06:27:29 PM 623 Views
It's the truth. - 13/10/2010 06:29:56 PM 547 Views
Think of it this way, Emma... - 13/10/2010 06:00:11 PM 640 Views
Re: Think of it this way, Emma... *NM* - 13/10/2010 06:26:09 PM 350 Views
You could at least try not to contradict yourself. - 13/10/2010 06:29:11 PM 513 Views
Me being childish? - 13/10/2010 06:52:24 PM 569 Views
Some more thoughts ... - 12/10/2010 05:03:58 PM 695 Views
I don't think it is necessary that Rand be a public figure as Elayne's husband. - 12/10/2010 05:08:10 PM 570 Views
It's not that I think it's necessary, per se ... - 12/10/2010 05:44:03 PM 683 Views
On that particular point... - 12/10/2010 06:05:59 PM 671 Views
That's reasonable speculation, I think ... - 12/10/2010 07:58:23 PM 591 Views
I don't know that Egwene's lack of recognition necessarily means anything... - 12/10/2010 08:07:11 PM 513 Views
Yep, I agree ... - 12/10/2010 09:18:57 PM 620 Views
I'm not so sure the 'blood on the rocks' isn't a red herring any more. - 13/10/2010 06:23:18 PM 941 Views
By the way ... - 12/10/2010 10:07:49 PM 520 Views
But that is not the only prophecy of Rand's death. - 12/10/2010 10:13:50 PM 516 Views
Just playing devil's advocate here ... - 12/10/2010 10:58:40 PM 672 Views
That raises an interesting question: - 13/10/2010 04:01:17 PM 603 Views
Re: That raises an interesting question: - 13/10/2010 05:57:39 PM 629 Views
IIRC... - 12/10/2010 07:58:39 PM 703 Views
That is unfortunate. - 12/10/2010 08:02:18 PM 607 Views
Switching bodies with Logain is mine. *NM* - 13/10/2010 05:03:43 AM 322 Views
Are we doing that now? I call dibs on Be'laim. - 14/10/2010 04:32:59 PM 647 Views
Body swap or Nynaeve heal seem the best bets to me. - 14/10/2010 04:42:16 PM 591 Views

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