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I hear a lot of that, but I think you may be mistaking Jordans motives, too. Joel Send a noteboard - 24/11/2010 12:49:53 AM
First and foremost, I am quite willing to state that I found Wheel of Time a fun and exciting diversion for the first six books. In fact, I think that The Dragon Reborn through Lord of Chaos are some of the most exciting fantasy books I read.

After Lord of Chaos, however, the series began to suffer tremendously. I don't think Jordan was sick at that early date. He was just getting greedy and dragging things out when the whole series would probably have been done in nine books if he kept to his pace from Books IV-VI (Dragon Reborn was slightly slower, though I still enjoyed it a lot). He added in unnecessary side stories, he actually went back and rewrote events that had already taken place (Salidar Aes Sedai travelling through the Gateway) and he protracted things for no good reason.

People who came late to the series don't quite appreciate the frustration that each successive book, starting with Book VII, generated in fans (and yes, I was one of them). Fans waited year after year, only to hear about dresses, and horses' names, and stout Two Rivers woolens, when they wanted exciting fantasy books with thrilling conclusions. If you care to look in the Wayback Machine, my prediction of what was going to happen in Book IX (I believe) was, essentially "nothing" (I called it "The Vanishing Bridle" ). I was already irritated at that point, and we hadn't even got to Crossroads of Twilight, the non-event of a book that was essentially a waste of paper.

The funny thing is that not only did Jordan start to milk the series for fun and profit, but he also somehow encouraged (unintentionally, I think) the Jordan apologists to defend his blatant attempt at cashing in while dragging things out as a rich and textured "character development", which it obviously was not. They began to see the series as a masterpiece and discuss it as though it were one.

Back in the old days at wotmania, there weren't a lot of people who waxed poetic about Jordan's style or the rich world he created, at least not when I started going there. People had theories about what was GOING to happen and what HAD happened that we didn't get explicit confirmation of (Asmodean's killer, the Taimandred theory, the mystery of Thom's surviving Whitebridge, what "his Blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" meant - I said it was a reference to the Aiel, etc. ). This sort of speculation was fun.

Things change. People change. The world changes. Writers go bad. Readers go crazy and idolize their favorite authors. The person who sent a theory about Taim and Demandred to wotmania back in 1999 under the name "The Voice of Lews Therin" became disgusted with the decline in quality of the series as entertainment and the attempts to call it something more than entertainment.

And that brings us to the last point - we're not at a Jordan fansite anymore. It's a site for people to discuss books. It's a site where people can be critical of the fanboys of any author. That's part of the interaction.

I think it's clear now what's going to happen - all the kings of the earth assemble at the Field of Merrilor, Mat arrives and says Trollocs are attacking Caemlyn, everyone goes to fight them, Taim arrives to help the Trollocs, Rand is mortally wounded. The ladies take him to Tar Valon to try to save him, and then he is saved somehow (either staying in the same body or in a new body) and he goes to Shayol Ghul, wins and ends up sealing the Bore properly, but everyone thinks he's dead. The End.

Either way, it doesn't really matter.

I never met him, so I don't know how long it took for symptoms to manifest, for him to notice, and before he decided that, like it or not, he needed to see a doctor and find out wtf was happening. I can only guess, but there's no doubt it affected the books, and well before his actual death. I think it's a given that it affected KoD, and probably at least one or two books before that.

I'm not saying that covers the whole multitude of his sins though, nor denying he had them. I don't think he was motivated by greed, but I do think he deliberately extended the books. Again, the importance of symbolism in general and the number thirteen in particular within Randland convinced me long before I arrived at wotmania that the series was aimed at either a dozen or thirteen books, most likely the latter and after Jordans stated intention to have a dozen books, adding one prequel would make it thirteen. Incidentally, telling a publisher who wants to split your final volume that you'll finish in one even if it requires its own luggage doesn't sound like an author dragging out a series.

It sounds a lot more like an author who decided he HAD to have EXACTLY a dozen mainline books, panicking and padding when he thought he only had material for nine or ten, then discovering too late that he actually had the right amount of material and only left himself two books to include it all. That's a dual failure, first in becoming too attached to an arbitrary number, and second in estimating the pace you should set, badly at that. Greed is far from the only possible explanation, though, once again, that doesn't mean he's off the hook.

Yes, my perspective is probably a little different than yours. You see, I discovered the series immediately after it peaked; I bought LoC in paperback because it had only just hit the store in that form. In other words, I burned through a half dozen extant books, arriving at the peak of the series months after the publication of the last truly great volume (until TGS, IMHO) and then, for the first time, I got to wait along with the rest of you for a book that hadn't been written yet: ACoS. How I loathed ACoS, and for how long. From the summer of '96 until about a month before KoD, IIRC, from the moment I bought it fresh off the presses until I'd read it three times. After that it FINALLY became a decent book in my eyes, though maybe how awful the three succeeding novels were made it seem better by comparison. Still not great, but good.

It cuts both ways though: If neither you nor mierin cared about character and world development then, why did it suddenly become so important when the series began declining? I'm not saying the quality hasn't declined; I'm right there with you on TPoD, the Book of Nothing. The Bowl of Winds is used, Rand stages and then wages a campaign he fights to a savage draw and Elaynes horse dies. We knew the Bowl would be used, but we see no (weather) effects, so TPoD is essentially seven hundred blank pages with no Mat to redeem it. Rand staging his campaign, the logistics, the "storm of battle, fog of war", Callandor, these are all fascinating and build suspense to a high level--only to be aborted when Rand calls it all off after the first battle. Calling it a tease would be kind (but at least he begins the most unpopular plotline).

What I am saying is that the poor quality of books 8-10 in no way diminishes the first half dozen, which are nearly half the series (as intended; Jordan once paced things quite well, achieving a central climax neatly at the midpoint before beginning a then inexorable journey to the denoument). Things DID get better in KoD, but it was choppy; OTOH, the author knew he was dying by then and, IMHO, was also confronting the harsh truth that he shouldn't have padded the series and only had two books left to cover four books of material. The Path of Daggers could've (should've) been merged with ACoS, and WH could've been merged with CoT; guess how many WoT books there are then. The Gathering Storm was VERY good though, IMHO; it reminded me why I read the series. For the first time since LoC here was a WoT book I literally could not stop reading. Towers of Midnight is not in that class, but it is, IMHO, on the level of KoD, which makes it good but not great. The question is how much you want to bust Jordans chops for the fact three of the fourteen WoT books he'll directly or indirectly produce are wretched, knowing that he was almost certainly succumbing to terminal illness while writing at least one, if not two, of them. If you want to laud Sanderson I'll repeat what I told the guy who recently suggested making Middle-Earth into some neo-pagan religion to replace the Christianity he despises: The thing you dismiss and deride is central to what you esteem, and dear to its creator. To mock Christianity is to mock Tolkien, and dismissing Jordan is dismissing someone Sanderson apparently considers a formative influence.

As to the site, have you compared the average number of people logged in its first year to the average number since around the time ToM was released? A lot of the wotmaniac history lingering here is BAD history, man, and attrition due to the various aspects of that as well as real world responsibilities continues apace. You may expect the ranks to reform around general books, and I wish you luck, given the hundreds of other options available to those seeking that, yet the bulk of new members have come, not for books in general, but one book in particular. That's a narrow but vital window of opportunity RAFO is missing, as it probably will again next spring. Whether RAFO is for books in general, or SF/Fantasy (whether or not speculative writing is fiction, it was my understanding RAFO was meant to be a SF/Fantasy site, not just for books in general) grudgingly acknowledging international bestsellers seems a poor way to proceed. I don't say these things (as I have often enough already) to provoke change, only to clarify my view of the site. I'm hopeful about RAFO, but not optimistic, because its perspective too often seems too provincial and/or elitist to have wide appeal. Given all the time, energy and money invested, that would be a tragic shame, but, oh, well: It's past time to roll the dice. Now we're just waiting for them to stop spinning....

Sleep now, I think; I'm getting rambly, for which you have my apologies.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 24/11/2010 at 12:57:19 AM
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Word *NM* - 22/11/2010 09:09:57 AM 245 Views
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You prove my point. - 24/11/2010 01:57:05 AM 622 Views
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Of course it's formulaic: It's a genre book to a large extent ABOUT the genre. - 23/11/2010 08:49:56 PM 599 Views
You're misrepresenting this site and my position. - 23/11/2010 09:54:04 PM 515 Views
I hear a lot of that, but I think you may be mistaking Jordans motives, too. - 24/11/2010 12:49:53 AM 1142 Views
Jordan only mentioned finishing in one more book once he knew he was dying. - 24/11/2010 02:25:01 AM 515 Views
Jordan mentioned finishing in one when he reached the one with which he meant to finish. - 24/11/2010 03:55:42 PM 1140 Views
You sound like a Jordan apologist when you say that. - 26/11/2010 10:57:31 PM 500 Views
Call it an "anti-comparison". - 26/11/2010 11:39:47 PM 770 Views
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*giggles* - 23/11/2010 02:48:14 AM 502 Views

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