It's fortunate that I don't blame her for such an egregious usurpation. And she did not "acheive" that. It was given to her for absolutely no reason other than her coincidental association with an important person.
That's totally irrelevant. The point is that she managed to hold on to the position. She was clearly set up as a puppet Amyrlin to be controlled by the Hall and later disposed of, and yet she held on despite being surrounded by ferocious enemies. That's her true accomplishment.
Her personal qualities had precisely zero impact on the decision to give her the office and her age is merely a coincidence. That simply happens to be how old she was when a vacancy was created.
That's idiotic. That's like saying that a guy who becomes the President of the United States at the age of 21 is merely filling a position that happened to open up at that time, as if he had no special qualities that allowed him to fill a post that historically has never been held by such an inexperienced person.
She no more deserves credit for being made Amyrlin at that age than Elayne does for gaining her throne at the same age (It's 18 by the way, in case you were so busy masturbating over the descriptions of new weaves you forget those details).
What can I say... sa'angreal make me horny.
If Egwene had been totally inept and done absolutely nothing of value at any time in the series since her novice training, she would still have been Amyrlin, because it fit the bill thanks to attributes she was born with. What you praise Egwene for is no more to her credit than her beauty.
The point is that she became the permanent Amyrlin, which was never the intended position. Its like saying that Rand shouldn't be congratulated on being the Dragon because he was born that way, but he should be congratulated for finding out what the true purpose of being the Dragon is and implementing it.
If Nynaeve cannot have credit because she didn't invent Healing, than how can you give Egwene credit when she obviously did not found the White Tower? Elayne did not "copy" the great work of others, she reverse engineered lost technology from the end product.
So what does it help to reverse the argument again? I asked you how any of those are better than Egwene extrapolating from old knowledge, which both of those characters did too. You make as if they're original inventors when in fact both are as 'lame' as Egwene.
If Egwene had reverse-engineered Travelling from an open gateway, that might have been a little more significant. Simply being the first one to inquire of a captive Forsaken how to do something is hardly on the order of succeeding where the best the Tower could produce had failed for three thousand years.
Egwene didn't get any knowledge from Moghedien. She merely confirmed her theory on Travelling. She established the method long before while talking to Rand and debating the differences in methods. She did gain knowledge from Moghedien for cuendillar, but once again Moghedien only knew hints about it, not the actual weave.
The only reason Egwene was in that position to think of Travelling was her excerable lust for power and raging envy of the man to whom she owes her station in life.
Or maybe she didn't like the fact that men could jump from one point on the planet to the other instantly and she had to take a wagon. That's mighty selfish of her.
Nynaeve or Elayne could have learned it just as easily if they had ever any serious intention of going any where from the time they captured Moghedian until after Egwene came to town. They had important business in Salidar and did not have time to waste envying Rand's accomplishment.
That's about as relevant as saying that Egwene could have learned to Heal like Nynaeve if she had any drive to. Its utterly useless speculation.
That's bullshit. What makes doing that great, and since when is being in a history book an inherently good thing. It makes Egwene a trivia answer - it is not an achievement.
Well your own personal opinions on greatness are flawed. The fact that you don't care about the Forsaken is pointless. They are the thirteen most evil and capable people aligned to the Shadow and they cause a lot of destruction. Destroying them is a major key in thwarting the Shadow and allowing its plans to prosper. Even Rand goes out of his way to take them out if he locates them.
Your citation of this is particularly egregious when you yourself acknowledged that her triumph was due to a mental error.
I claimed that the error was on the part of the author, not Egwene, no matter how ridiculous her assertion that the Amyrlin is more ancient and great than the Forsaken.
The fact that she happened to confront Mesaana in a limited arena where Egwene's own innate abilities gave her an advantage, and she was too stupid to know how flawed her rationale was does not redound to her credit.
Except that Mesaana was clearly as powerful as her in TAR, and an experienced and extremely dangerous woman. She used methods that Egwene had never even considered and was still defeated.
Moiraine shooting them in the back while they concentrated on Rand is more impressive than Egwene taking on Mesaana with a ton of allies, some of whom included the greatest living T'A'R experts. The Wise Ones themselves hypothesized their own ability in T'A'R to be superior to the Forsaken, and Egwene lucked into training from these experts.
Except that the Wise Ones were completely and utterly useless. Name one thing that they did except disguise themselves as walls. They didn't kill or capture a single member of the Black Ajah, and the first time they saw Egwene again is when she appeared with Mesaana whom she'd turned into a vegetable.
Nynaeve, with none of that training, and nothing but Egwene's scorn and condescension for her T'A'R talents did far better than Egwene. Egwene faced a woman with no known natural ability in T'A'R, with a natural ability of her own.
Mesaana is obviously a dreamwalker too. Just because she didn't have Lanfear or Moghedien's reputation doesn't mean anything.
She had expert allies and enough followers to provide distractions and cannon fodder.
Well that DOES sum it up... the Wise Ones were distractions at best. They hardly appeared to have contributed at all. Nynaeve was by far the greater ally.
Nynaeve, all by herself, took on the greatest known expert in T'A'R and captured her (a much more difficult feat than killing) and obtained a great deal of use from her, despite the hindsight scorning of her non-execution by an inept ghostwriter who can't remember characters' names half the time. Nynaeve, lacking any but self-training and having no natural aptitude in T'A'R, captured the most dangerous Forsaken in T'A'R on her own.
Except that Nynaeve was defeated every time and saved by Birgitte. As if an arrow sticking out of Moghedien's chest is an incidental finding that plays no further part in the scene
. Nynaeve won each time through the distraction of a third party, and though her methods were commendable, it was all luck. Egwene faced a Forsaken head on and defeated her, which only Rand can actually claim. Nynaeve faced the weakest, least skilled and most cowardly of any of the Chosen, whereas Egwene faced a woman who has never been afraid of conflict according to History.Egwene, WITH a natural ability and formal training by the best experts in the world, AND their assistance, not to mention, numerous cannon fodder, manages to defeat a lesser user of T'A'R with no known natural affinity for the place. And you claim that's a superior accomplishment?
I don't claim it. I claim that its equivalent.
What gain came from Egwene's defeat of Mesaana?
How about the removal of one of the world's most powerful and evil people who openly serves the devil?
Nynaeve achieved a whole host of discoveries, helped in a crucial manner in Rand's fight with Rahvin, and enabled Egwene's "discovery" of Traveling, not to mention a bunch of lesser discoveries which helped raise Egwene's profile with the Salidar sisters.
As if this was Nynaeve's grand plot
Her first weave ever to Moghedien was a first of air to smash her face in.How many potential channelers were lost for the upcoming crises in Egwene's glorious victory?
The death of Mesaana is worthy of many dead channelers. Rand was prepared to kill hundreds of people to get Graendal.
Nynaeve didn't get anyone killed. But all that matters to you is the only-as-long-as-the-Dark-One-wants death of Mesaana. You are so blinded by a single character's office that you can't even assess her comparatively pyrrhic victory objectively!
You are so blinded by a single character's office that you can't even assess her comparatively pyrrhic victory objectively! Egwene didn't get anyone killed either. They were attacked by the Black Ajah who did all the murder. Egwene forced an inevitable confrontation.
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Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
Egwene... hmm... no.
- 20/11/2010 07:02:24 AM
1927 Views
Re: Egwene... hmm... no.
- 20/11/2010 08:17:52 AM
1013 Views
Re: Egwene... hmm... no.
- 20/11/2010 10:29:35 AM
1069 Views
Agreed
- 20/11/2010 10:58:33 AM
896 Views
The important thing is it is T'A'R. Her victory was not implausible at all.
- 22/11/2010 02:11:08 PM
971 Views
Yup. It might not have been the best climax, but it was definitely plausible.
- 26/11/2010 08:27:00 AM
743 Views
It's BS
- 02/12/2010 03:43:55 AM
920 Views
I disagree with Egwene being a Mary Sue
- 02/12/2010 11:42:52 AM
1462 Views
Factually incorrect en masse
- 02/12/2010 03:38:13 PM
838 Views
That. Is. Not. An. Accomplishment. Your perverse twisting of details for her sake is totally absurd.
- 02/12/2010 08:54:12 PM
849 Views
No no no
- 04/12/2010 07:14:21 AM
878 Views
I think you are misinterpreting
- 20/11/2010 04:20:49 PM
922 Views
That's a possibility.
- 22/11/2010 02:02:20 PM
857 Views
Re: That's a possibility.
- 04/12/2010 06:48:19 AM
749 Views
The Amyrlin Seat is a modern twist on the Hall of Servants, but I don't think you can say
- 04/12/2010 01:47:03 PM
983 Views
It doesn't really matter if it is erroneous, so long as she believes it is true. *NM*
- 21/11/2010 04:17:35 AM
635 Views
Mesaana might have spent too much time reading the Tower's press releases.
- 22/11/2010 02:00:50 PM
909 Views