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Re: It would be a first... DomA Send a noteboard - 15/12/2010 12:43:49 PM
Very interesting post by both of you. Do you really think the Pattern (Jordan) is going to let Aes Sedai to continue to hinder Rand further at this point?


What I've noticed is that the Wheel used the web of destiny around Rand to silence the whole room when he met Egwene. This has never happened before, not so strongly. The Aes Sedai all felt it, and couldn't speak a word. All of them but one: Egwene. Egwene never even felt Rand pulling at her.

It sounds obvious enough: there's nothing there to worry about. Egwene's current "opposition" is part of the Will of the Wheel. Rand saw to other things, while Egwene mobilized the Tower and the world leaders. She's mobilized them for one purpose, but that's not necessarily the purpose the Wheel has in mind for this gathering.

And no, I don't think the Wheel would really let Egwene oppose Rand and the other two ta'veren at this point. She's way too closely caught in their webs for this.


I don't see the Light having a chance, whether I like it or not, without the Tower 'Aes Sedai' and the Seanchan.


No, I don't think they stand much chance either. The Finns told Rand about this. Between him and Egwene, they've made the north and the East "as one" and coming to the fields of Merrilor. Tuon by mobilizing for her strike at TV is finally making the West and South "as one". The next stage is that "the two must be as one".

The time where Egwene has to face her dream about her and the Seanchan woman having to help each other to reach the top (beyond the cloud cover, where the Light shines) is coming soon, very soon. Will it come through a victory of the Seanchan over the WT at first? Possibly, possibly not. I think it's at least pretty much a given Rand will never agree to serve the Seanchan (which isn't in itself a problem now.. he's proclaimed himself Servant of All, there's no shame for an AOL Aes Sedai to see himself as a Servant) unless they've ended their war of conquest. So it appears it's Egwene's and Tuon's job to come to a settlement. I don't think the Seanchan will come to Merrilor peacefully, it would be extremely anticlimactic. It sounds more likely the Seanchan will attack TV shorly after the gathering, when the LB has started. It may be part of what sways Tuon eventually. The LB has started, her prophecies have turned out wrong or now spell that "all is lost" because the Return has failed. She has no choice, she must find another solution, or face that this is the end of everything. It's similar for Egwene. She refused to even contemplate an alliance with the Seanchan, she fled that dream in horror. It sounds to me like the only way these two might ally is when it becomes a clear choice between annihilation or survival, for both of them.

There's more to play out... Egwene has very recently gained the women with whom she could expose Tuon as a latent channeller, and worse.. the fact she's kept the fact sul'dam can also channel secret. Tuon's rule could be shaken to the core by this, and in the midst of TG, the Seanchan wouldn't survive this - they'd shatter in factions, with no clear leader. The thing about the Seanchan is that only the central power keeps them together. Remove it, and all falls apart... just like happened in Seanchan itself.

Also ask yourself what Gawyn will do with his Bloodknife Rings. It's a loaded gun, it's been shown too much in TOM, it will be used. It sounds obvious sooner or later he will have Tuon within his reach... which might make an initial conquest of the WT by Tuon early in TG a strong possibility.

What seems likely to me is that after Merrilor, Egwene will have committed a large number of AS to the LB (the whole Green Ajah, certainly) and thus they won't return to TV, meaning the Seanchan might conquer the city of Tar Valon, but most AS will have escaped them, in other words a near complete failure. It might also be even worse, for instance if at Merrilor, Egwene decides to commit the whole Red Ajah to join Logain to deal with the BT. OTOH, it might feel disastrous if the opposite happens and it's Logain who goes to TV to prepare with the Reds the strike at the BT.

As for Egwene at Merrilor, I wonder more and more about the role of Nynaeve, Moiraine and Cadsuane at this meeting. How much influence Cadsuane the Legend has over the Battle Ajah. If the Amyrling decides not to commit the Tower or refuse Rand's demands, what will Cadsuane do? Cadsuane has influence over the Wise Ones as well, and an alliance with Sorilea Egwene knows nothing about. She has ties to the Windfinders as well, and to Nynaeve. Incidentally, by going through the test, Nynaeve stands at the top of the Tower hierarchy in truth now, and that she is AS can no longer be denied. Where would Nynaeve stand if Egwene goes too far in her opposition? Will she stay on the WT side or announce she goes to join Rand? And then there's Moiraine, who has gained legendary status by "dying" and now returns from the dead. Where will Moiraine stands?

It looks to me like between Nynaeve, Moiraine and Cadsuane resides the potential to break the Ajahs and the Tower for good and undo everything Egwene has accomplished, if Egwene doesn't step carefully at Merrilor, or goes too far, and if Cadsuane, Moiraine and Nynaeve decide the role of the AS, the purpose of the AS is more important than saving the institution. She might lose the Blue, the Green and the Yellow Ajah, and see her vision of uniting the WO and the Windfinders with the Tower evaporate like mist in the sun. There's no telling what the White will do as well, once they hear Rand's arguments. If his logic is unbeatable....

The only way Egwene could preserve her leadership and keep the Tower whole would be by announcing that despite her opposition about the seals, she commits the WT to Rand and the LB.


Does the prophecy that goes something like, 'The unstained Tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign' prophecy apply here do you think?


No, this got fulfilled in LOC. "The Unstained Tower" was merely a reference to the Taint.

I think so many others expected to see so much more out of Egwene, especially post TGS with Elaida now gone. Instead of her falling deeper into a pure Third Age 'Aes Seda'.


Well.. LTT himself now says Latra Posae may have been right to oppose him. He also stated flat out that his plan was flawed. That's LTT's real failure: he didn't come up with a good plan. All he had was a flawed, extremely risky plan he thinks Latra may have been right to oppose, and Latra's flawed plan of her own.

From Egwene's perspective, it makes perfect sense to oppose Rand breaking the seals. Cadsuane for instance knows exactly what he's about, and she does not oppose him. Egwene doesn't know what he's really about, and had a very worrying dream about it. From her POV, this seems insane. You can't blame Egwene for at last taking her "international" responsabilities now that she's mananged to clean house. It would also be a complete deriliction of the Watcher of the Seals's duty to the world if she's told Rand "Okay, let's do this" just because he announced he would break the Seals. Rand wasn't about to reveal all his plans to Egwene. He wanted the whole world gathered to hear his demands. He told Egwene just enough to motivate her to make this gathering happen. Egwene thinks it's about the Seals. It's not, Rand is already decided on the issue.

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The significance of 23 stars (TOM Spoilers) - 14/12/2010 11:48:55 PM 3635 Views
It would be a first... - 15/12/2010 02:46:33 AM 1510 Views
Re: It would be a first... - 15/12/2010 04:39:17 AM 1131 Views
I think people aren't giving Egwene enough credit. - 15/12/2010 04:59:09 AM 1185 Views
She's not bringing everyone for a discussion, but for leverage to force him to change his mind. - 19/12/2010 09:54:49 PM 1104 Views
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Re: - 20/12/2010 04:37:24 AM 938 Views
Huh? - 20/12/2010 05:09:39 AM 1045 Views
I find the theory - 20/12/2010 09:18:34 AM 947 Views
That's a new one to me - 20/12/2010 09:45:09 AM 1032 Views
Your theory is very unlikely - 20/12/2010 09:50:26 AM 1035 Views
If it was a plant, why would it be so oblique? - 29/12/2010 07:22:58 AM 910 Views
Re: - 20/12/2010 08:09:53 PM 1133 Views
That's not true. - 21/12/2010 02:22:50 AM 1181 Views
Sadly, the thing you reference four times isn't actually anywhere in the book. - 29/12/2010 03:17:15 AM 1162 Views
+1 - 29/12/2010 07:10:41 AM 1071 Views
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think I love you. (edited) - 29/12/2010 06:43:32 PM 1325 Views
Ah, if only I could sell the concept of sister-wives.... - 29/12/2010 07:09:56 PM 987 Views
Re: It would be a first... - 15/12/2010 12:43:49 PM 1546 Views
Dear lord, you wrote the Egwene haters' ultimate fantasy right there - 19/12/2010 01:41:55 AM 1060 Views
Don't think of use as Egwene haters... - 19/12/2010 04:32:11 AM 1005 Views
One problematic issue...This assumes the Dark One cannot hold himself back once the Seals are broken - 15/12/2010 07:57:53 AM 1196 Views
Err, it's the other way around - 15/12/2010 09:00:38 AM 1123 Views
I see. It's the same thing, really, just looking at it from the opposite perspective... - 15/12/2010 09:14:22 AM 1189 Views
Don't you know it's all about the posturing - 15/12/2010 09:40:15 AM 1135 Views
It's more that you take it out of context - 15/12/2010 11:32:36 AM 1173 Views
So then... - 15/12/2010 06:35:02 PM 1144 Views
Re: So then... - 16/12/2010 03:39:19 AM 1075 Views
Re: So then... - 16/12/2010 08:11:37 AM 1040 Views
Mierin - 16/12/2010 08:13:55 AM 1224 Views
It would be a good strategy for a conventional war, but - 16/12/2010 07:32:30 AM 1085 Views
Nature of the DO - 15/12/2010 10:38:24 PM 978 Views
While I agree overall, I think this is a case where Rand/TDR mistakes his role - 15/12/2010 05:37:25 PM 932 Views
I don't see why Egwene would oppose his plan - 15/12/2010 06:17:47 PM 969 Views
I don't think that's the issue. - 15/12/2010 07:31:03 PM 1029 Views
I think Egwene is successful and Rand has to go to the Seanchan for female channeler assistance - 18/12/2010 12:47:54 AM 1097 Views
Egwene's dream seems a little more personal than that - 18/12/2010 04:55:37 AM 937 Views
Yes - 18/12/2010 07:57:35 AM 961 Views
Actually, I think Tuon will capture her, and then release her. *NM* - 18/12/2010 02:47:42 PM 529 Views
Re: It would be a first... - 18/12/2010 02:48:40 PM 975 Views
Re: It would be a first... - 18/12/2010 03:28:57 PM 959 Views
Those are vewings and prophesies... - 18/12/2010 03:43:55 PM 858 Views
I wish - 16/12/2010 08:29:23 PM 999 Views
That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong. - 19/12/2010 11:30:35 PM 1421 Views
Man, that's the best take on Egwene I have ever read. - 20/12/2010 12:38:07 AM 986 Views
+1 - 20/12/2010 01:07:24 AM 1072 Views
You may be onto something there. - 20/12/2010 01:35:46 AM 1015 Views
Thanks. - 20/12/2010 01:24:42 AM 981 Views
Re: That's just it: Egwene is not only wrong, she's narratively wrong. - 20/12/2010 04:39:57 PM 1092 Views
Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points. - 29/12/2010 03:38:59 AM 1033 Views
Re: Wish I'd read this sooner, 'cos I agree on several points. - 29/12/2010 07:32:49 AM 993 Views
It seems an odd oversight, yes; I can't even recall her being Delved when the truth was revealed. - 29/12/2010 12:40:00 PM 1032 Views
Ensure this value has at most 100 characters (it has 101). - 29/12/2010 03:00:22 PM 2745 Views
Ah, good point; Rand might have to do the job himself. - 29/12/2010 06:43:44 PM 991 Views
More likely to be Flinn. - 29/12/2010 08:18:19 PM 1025 Views
Maybe, once he knows the signs and techniques. - 30/12/2010 03:10:27 PM 1011 Views
Not sure if Rand had seized the source yet - he wouldn't have wanted to do it in front of Ramshalan - 30/12/2010 03:15:43 PM 955 Views
Good point, too. - 30/12/2010 03:17:06 PM 947 Views
He was holding the gateway open. *NM* - 30/12/2010 04:27:25 PM 499 Views
Thanks, had forgotten that. - 31/12/2010 04:43:25 AM 947 Views

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