Active Users:207 Time:18/05/2024 11:32:20 AM
Re: Everything I've read keeps me convinced that Graendal was supposed to die. DomA Send a noteboard - 15/05/2012 01:35:18 PM
I have no idea why it was decided to keep her around a bit longer, since she does nothing of worth, but making Delana perform the Compulsion allows it to happen.



Her dying doesn't feel right, but I totally agree it feels like her next arc feels like Brandon gave her a reprieve she wasn't meant to have originally.

Her death would have undermined the whole "Rand is falling in madness" arc, her survival amplified how far gone Rand's mind was. Rand plan just wasn't rational: risking the Pattern to get rid of Graendal? Not all the Forsaken combined are worth that. Nothing should be. He was of course oblivious to his own insanity, but Graendal wasn't - he brought the bloody AK to the CK for the confrontation, it's like bringing a nuclear missile to get rid of one mouse (actually, it's even worse - its a true doomsday weapon which can destroy the world). The thing terrified LTT.

I think this was still her exit from the series, though. I'm not 100% convinced, but fairly convinced. Of course, Brandon ruined the amplification effect by moving her survival scene to TOM, but a lot of that happened as "unforeseen consequences" of the book split.

Why would he do so? To delay Graendal's original exit, which I'm sure was to end up as Shaidar Haran's pet all along. RJ's original idea, I think, was more like this: Graendal fools Rand, traps Aran'gar, barely escapes. Outside the palace (or already at her hiding place, it doesn't matter much) she is already planning ahead, weights the advantage of Rand thinking her dead etc. Shaidar Haran appears. She's failed with Rand, it's two Chosen she's killed now. She'll make a nice pet for SH, until she's broken and useless. This is either Graendal's final exit or she will have a secondary purpose, not as antagonist anymore but possibly in scenes of torture and such, if RJ felt the need to show Shai'tan's handywork more concretely toward the end. Eg: if at some point Shai'tan is close to seize Rand's soul, we could have a Graendal POV at the Pit, ripped out of her body and her soul directly in Shai'tan's hands where she'll suffer forever - to show concretely the "physical death isn't the end" horror that might await Rand.

Why delay Graendal's exit?

Because of the way the book was split by storylines. When he splitted things, Brandon began by moving the final confrontation with Mesaana from the night of Rand's epiphany to a few weeks after. He needed that to center the TOM Egwene chapters on. She needed to appear, but aside from Rand's visit, discussions, an encounter with Elayne, Egwene just didn't have much until TG began. She would have had only those, you know.. dreaded "do nothing and talk" scenes. So Brandon postponed Mesaana's demise, made Perrin come north twice instead of just once, once to witness the epiphany at DM, once to destroy the dreamspike during Mesaana's confrontation. He may well have decided to extend the Bloodknives arc too (Gawyn's arc in TOM felt stretched, it would have had more impact, in the original full book, if it simply peaked after Egwene's rescue, Siuan pushed aside, Gawyn sent to Andor. That Egwene punished Siuan but kept Gawyn around felt out of character. I can't think Jordan planned to give so much screentime to the Gawyn-Egwene romance either. With the original structure, this part of the book brought the four storylines together very dramatically - a really bad time to deal with personal subplots. The book split created this quasi-hiatus in Rand's arc and Egwene's arc between the Epiphany and Merrilor - waiting for the others to catch up, and Brandon had need for "filler". That gave him the space to stretch the romance a little. In the original structure, this part of the story probably remained fast paced: Mat left Caemlyn at last for Ghenji, Perrin dealt with Elayne, Elayne met Egwene. Rand solved the Bordermen, a few developments in Tear. Then Merrilor.).

But even keeping Mesaana for TOM I think Brandon saw another problem: I'd speculate that in Jordan's original outline, with all the storylines running in parallel, Jordan just didn't feel any need to involve directly more Forsaken in Perrin's and Mat's storylines. The last stretch of "heavy drama", the final path to the Epiphany, already started with the death of Semirhage and the use of the TP, took another big step in insanity with the death of Aran'gar and the enslaving of Graendal, then the Epiphany events already brought the demise of Mesaana by Egwene. This all makes me believe Jordan planned to still keep Moghedien and Cyndane totally in the background for Mat and Perrin, showing them in action only through their pawns: Masema for Cyndane, the BA-DF for Moghedien. For Mat, Jordan already had the gholam as concrete "epiphany" threat, and beside in the post "Epiphany" phase before Merrilor, Mat's foe was the Finns, not the Shadow.

Then for Perrin, Moridin just didn't need Graendal at all. It's long been obvious he has some "relationship" with Isam (there's a backstory to be revealed there. It sounds like Isam was raised by someone, perhaps his mother or another DF, at Moridin's fortress). After Cyndane failed with Masema and Faile killed her pawn, Moridin gave up. Cyndane had no time to plot deeply. The fact an old aborted side scheme of hers (Masema) was there let her try something, but it failed and let's move on. Like Moghedien, Cyndane has other more pressing tasks no doubt taking much time (gathering the DF for TG is one we know of - these two Forsaken have been at it since shortly before the Cleansing, as soon as they were done fetching the Forsaken for Moridin, it seems). Moridin is running out of top agents for his final preparations for TG, so he pulled out Cyndane when her only "easy" solution failed, and sent in Isam with the dreamspike (a big mistake to give the Light a taste of the device, I think - the Shadow may pay for this at the BT).

That would have worked perfectly in the original structure, but for some reasons I think Brandon felt Isam wasn't enough anymore in the different context of Perrin's story being more central, perhaps because Isam escapes in Jordan's outline to play yet another role in the last act and isn't punished or anything. That would have worked in the full book, but in the context that Perrin's storyline was "upgraded" to one of two main storylines in a novel, instead of the slightly more "supportive role" it would have had, like Mat, if the four storylines ran in parallel in one book, Brandon felt that to be anticlimactic. It may be also because the end battle in Perrin's storyline was meant to be Jordan's teaser for Demandred joining the field and Brandon preferred to keep that anticipated moment for the "start of the battle of Caemlyn" epilogue, as he had no time to introduce Demandred properly in TOM. So he wished to have another Forsaken behind that battle instead, and someone above Isam, and that left him only Graendal. He just had to delay her punishment from after her failure with Rand and give her a second failure with Perrin.

And that's what I think happened to Graendal.


Reply to message
Delana and compulsion - 13/05/2012 10:22:50 PM 1117 Views
It was so saidar would be detected in the compulsion... - 13/05/2012 11:21:10 PM 805 Views
Re: It was so saidar would be detected in the compulsion... - 14/05/2012 07:21:57 AM 586 Views
I think you need to re-read the passage - 14/05/2012 08:07:57 AM 548 Views
Re: I think you need to re-read the passage - 14/05/2012 11:16:26 AM 555 Views
I guess I needed to re-read the passage - 14/05/2012 03:05:03 PM 630 Views
She didn't know she'd be balefired... - 14/05/2012 08:16:06 PM 563 Views
Re: She didn't know she'd be balefired... - 14/05/2012 08:53:00 PM 697 Views
Re: She didn't know she'd be balefired... - 14/05/2012 10:20:01 PM 677 Views
You clearly read the scene, so how did you miss this? - 15/05/2012 03:33:55 AM 697 Views
Re: You clearly read the scene, so how did you miss this? - 15/05/2012 08:48:32 AM 583 Views
Re: You clearly read the scene, so how did you miss this? - 15/05/2012 02:41:15 PM 453 Views
Re: You clearly read the scene, so how did you miss this? - 15/05/2012 03:10:48 PM 636 Views
Oh, by the way... - 15/05/2012 08:55:24 AM 409 Views
That doesn't make sense... - 15/05/2012 09:47:54 PM 466 Views
Everything I've read keeps me convinced that Graendal was supposed to die. - 15/05/2012 06:46:57 AM 502 Views
I don't think she was supposed to die, but... - 15/05/2012 07:14:46 AM 614 Views
Re: Everything I've read keeps me convinced that Graendal was supposed to die. - 15/05/2012 09:58:08 AM 493 Views
In all honesty I think RJ did that on purpose - 15/05/2012 01:28:13 PM 620 Views
You misunderstand. - 15/05/2012 07:46:20 PM 610 Views
Agreed... - 15/05/2012 08:41:15 PM 429 Views
Re: Agreed... - 15/05/2012 11:07:46 PM 795 Views
Yup... - 15/05/2012 11:53:12 PM 579 Views
Re: Yup... - 16/05/2012 01:13:16 AM 640 Views
We'll have to agree to disagree on Graendal, I guess... - 16/05/2012 01:40:59 AM 754 Views
Re: We'll have to agree to disagree on Graendal, I guess... - 16/05/2012 01:46:09 AM 671 Views
Re: Everything I've read keeps me convinced that Graendal was supposed to die. - 15/05/2012 01:35:18 PM 596 Views
I don't think this is the end of Graendal's story... - 15/05/2012 02:27:10 PM 523 Views
Somethign I forgot... - 15/05/2012 04:54:40 PM 709 Views

Reply to Message