Active Users:186 Time:18/05/2024 06:37:26 PM
Re: Well, we may be in closer agreement then Larry Send a noteboard - 11/10/2012 06:14:27 AM
I will note that Jordan as always been a very "Southern" writer to me, at least in terms of the style of stories told by a few of the characters within the narrative, not to mention certain character types.

I'm not surprised. You must see a lot more than I could, in fact. I've listened to interviews with people from his area, and they all found RJ an extremely southern writer, and in an old fashioned way.


He's no Faulkner, Welty, Agee, or O'Connor, but there are times in his writing at a sentence level where it seems he tried to make a sentence/description do as much as the ones I mentioned above often achieved with their fictions. I just think he failed more often than he succeeded, but the style certainly is something a bit antiquated to me, not that I'm not used to more ornate prose (or attempts at such) ;)

It bemused me when I saw the reactions to Cadsuane, for example, as she sounded and acted just like many older aunts/great-aunts that I knew when I was growing up in the 1980s-early 1990s in Tennessee. There are some social elements within that which also reminded me of my native region, not always in a good way.

Cadsuane reminds me very much of my grandmother.

Agreed on the shallowness of the mythological appropriations. It's something that I suppose can occupy those who try to piece such things together, but it's too "whole cloth" for me, even when he tries to reverse them.

It's not an aspect of the series that fascinates me that much (unlike, for example for Linda). RJ's got a handful of fairly good characters built out of mythological elements.. Rand, Egwene, Lanfear, Moridin and to an extent Mat, but on the whole I fail to recognize in there the depth mythology is supposed to have, the whole spiritual dimension is mostly absent except with Rand and Moridin. Divorcing a mythology from its cultural and anthropolocial dimension, by throwing tidbits out of context into something is also bizarre to me, whose main interest in myths as always centered on anthropology (making me far more interested in Orphic or Demeter mysteries and understanding the worlview and religion than in retelling of episodes about Gods and heroes... I've never been much the "Clash of Titans" kind of lover of mythology!). There's a whole lot of name dropping, absurd parralels and extremely shallow connections for connections' sake. I get the point, the references are supposed to be but a distorted shadow of a shadow of something from our mythologies but still, it's hard to develop a passion for that when you've the type to have read sagas or the old irish texts.


I agree. And now I find myself thinking of that mechanical owl battling Sam Worthington. Thanks? :P

How far have you gotten in your Malazan read?

Everything but FoD and the two last Esslemonts.


Save FoD for last. There's an event in Orb Sceptre Throne that I think would be more mysterious if read first than after a similar event is described in FoD. Other than that, FoD would spoil little for the two Esslemont books.

I'm discovering that Erikson/Esslemont's foreshadowing is much, much deeper and subtler than I expected as I'm re-reading their novels after finishing last month the just-released Forge of Darkness.

Theirs is another extremely cerebral series, very constructed.


Indeed.

I think that series is an interesting counterpoint to the anticipatory-style approach to reading WoT. I couldn't imagine "theories" about Malazan.

Indeed, and yes their foreshadowing proved clever, and surprisingly abundant in hindsight. These two approached this as very experienced "dungeon masters". They knew what was going on "in the present" and worked hard to keep the reader in the dark (which in part they accomplished by not giving knowledgeable characters POVs... or avoiding situations where they'd have to explain things). Malazan is something they meant to be experienced as the story unfolded. Their approach showed a lot the origin of the setting and stories in RPG. This is no game of anticipation, it's more about discovery. Unlike a RPG however, E&E were not only directive, but they meant the reader to stay fairly passive.


I don't know if "passive" is an entirely suitable word for this, although I see what you're getting at in terms of the story arcs being those to be discovered rather anticipated. I think what Malazan readers (or rather, re-readers) can do is piece together the evidence after the fact and draw conclusions based on some of the themes the two are exploring.

Jordan's approach was a great deal more "interactive". More playful as well. Again it reminds me a lot of folk tellers playing on purpose with anticipation in their audience, and defying expectations at the same time and loving that. In part the foreshadowing in WOT is just yet another device to create patterns. More and more it turns out the whole raw matter was there in the early books, it all comes down to piecing the jigsaw together the right way, and it's the sort of puzzle that can be formed in many ways (some of which showed up at various points in the stories). When Jordan saw he was having success with that approach, that he had hooked tons of people, that theory sites had emerged and all, he's multiplied the "mysteries". Some are about plot, some are about backstories, but - a bit like Malazan - RJ made the cosmology itself and the magic system something that could be mysterious. He didn't always played fair, but most of his stuff is fairly logical, so there's a small chance it can be puzzled out.


Yes. Problem I run into is that I try to be simultaneously a "smart" and "dumb" reader. I like to figure out some possibilities while reading, but I don't want to dwell on anticipating future developments when reading, because I am more concerned with how discoveries are presented rather than guessing at what revelations there will be. So for me, as WoT advanced, I felt that there were more and more longeurs in the various story arcs, things that became very difficult to avoid once the arcs began to incorporate more and more elements (political, intrigue, etc.) in addition to a core quest/prophecy element. It's an issue I have with quite a few multivolume epic fantasies, that sense of "mission creep" that weakens the narrative at times in order to incorporate more within the pages.

Instead, it seems to be something that you read first through a fog, then second to discover what first had appeared to be odd asides and weird little character interactions have now taken on new dimensions. I think this is something that WoT has lacked, that sense of "re-readability" for me.

It's certainly a very different sense of rereadability. Malazan is very taxing on the memory, but some of the mysteries are deep or interesting enough to call for re read, and new layers come through. What I liked most about Malazan (which honestly I found as uneven as WOT, with sections that are pure delight - the chain of dogs for example, and far less mastered sections throughout) is the anthropological approach to it all. In some way Malazan is even more about the setting and its people than it is about characters and plot.


Yes, it's the historico-anthropological "layers" that captured my attention by the beginning of MoI. I can see where for some it might get to be a bit much by series' end, but for me, it's the questions revolving around faith, belief, structures (wanderings–>holds–>warrens), and the effects of violence upon humans that have held my interest throughout. It feels more thought out than what I have encountered before in epic fantasies (not that I have read a great many of those).

WOT is different, re reading enhances the entertaining value, makes you a better player at the theory game. For those not interested in this "interactivity", it has some of the taxing on memory (and patience) aspect of Malazan (with its minor players who did apparently minor things books ago then vanished to return to fulfill a specific purpose when most casual readers will have long forgotten who the hell they were or what they did) but without the depth. Both Malazan and WOT are something a bit for maniacs, for all the major differences between the two series. Both Malazan and WOT kept their attraction for the more maniacal readers, while for a lot of their more casual readership the mid to late series disappointed (unsurprisingly, I preferred that part of Malazan much like I much preferred books 6-11 of WOT). I'm sure a lot of the grumping with books like COT owed to the fact Jordan kind of gave up on satisfying the more casual readership. It's terribly difficult to keep those people interested with books like COT, with dozens and dozen of recurring minor players referring mysteriously to minor events the casual readers neither remembers nor cares for. Tons of thinsg happened in COT, not just a whole lot that would please those who had reached the point where they desperately wanted to get to the resolution of the main epic arc. With Malazan it was more overt... Erikson very rapidly threw the readers into something foggy and opaque, and after maybe two or three volumes, you knew what you were in for (that didn't stop people from complaining along the way, especially when he moved to a third continent and a whole new set of characters). With Jordan it wasn't so overt... the first books really gave the impression you were in for a relatively fast paced classic epic Fantasy, that and WOT with its ton of side plots and cast of over 2000 remains fairly demanding for someone approaching it for casual entertainment, unless your idea of entertainment is getting involved in that sort of thing, participate in forums and so on.


Let's not forget that for Malazan, the fans who thought the Crippled God would be the focal point of the series might have overwhelmed to see the Tiste issue arise in the late volumes (FoD introduces some bombshells in regards to that, although passages in TtH and DoD do hint along those lines) and the Esslemont volumes confused the issue some more for those who wanted a more linear plot progression. When I first read those late volumes, I liked the thematic/prose elements, but wondered if focus had been lost. Now I'm suspecting that the story is purposely left open-ended, not just for the presumed "main" element, but for the Tiste co-plot and the "barbaric" Karsa one. That possible non-"end game" may dissuade many who loved the Chain of Dogs or the Battle of Coral from loving the clash in TtH or the revelations of DoD or TCG.

As for WoT, I think its prose and characterizations are too weak for it to achieve Jordan's ambitions for it, but I started reading it 15 years ago, when I actually read CoS first (thinking it was a series of stand-alones for some reason) and understood just enough to decide 1-6 would be worth buying, even with my grad student budget at the time. The succeeding volumes just felt more like the series got buried under the weight of its side elements, to the obscuration of its presumed thematic core.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
Reply to message
So when the book/series ends, what will it have all meant? - 08/10/2012 09:47:49 PM 1839 Views
Years of enjoyment. What else do you expect from fiction? - 08/10/2012 10:17:30 PM 833 Views
I expect a lot from fiction, to be honest - 09/10/2012 02:43:59 AM 869 Views
HAHAHA! - 08/10/2012 10:17:58 PM 915 Views
Yeah, the use of my time does matter - 09/10/2012 02:45:15 AM 840 Views
Not sure I'd call it mindless - 09/10/2012 02:53:00 AM 811 Views
Well, it is a bit more complex than a D&D novel - 09/10/2012 02:55:40 AM 810 Views
I'm not really a huge fiction reader to begin with - 09/10/2012 11:25:34 PM 707 Views
I've noticed that quite a few here/wotmania have not been big fiction (fantasy) readers - 11/10/2012 05:48:02 AM 793 Views
Re: I've noticed that quite a few here/wotmania have not been big fiction (fantasy) readers - 12/10/2012 05:11:20 PM 738 Views
I like the TV series ... It's gritty - 13/10/2012 11:44:06 PM 698 Views
Well... it's a bit late in the game... - 09/10/2012 02:04:16 AM 920 Views
True, but it's never too late to ask people such questions - 09/10/2012 02:49:28 AM 715 Views
I'm not sure... - 09/10/2012 06:03:08 AM 735 Views
Well, we may be in closer agreement then - 09/10/2012 06:43:50 PM 761 Views
Re: Well, we may be in closer agreement then - 09/10/2012 11:08:49 PM 842 Views
Re: Well, we may be in closer agreement then - 11/10/2012 06:14:27 AM 644 Views
Re: I'm not sure... - 11/10/2012 06:15:26 PM 700 Views
There's a reason for this... - 09/10/2012 02:11:21 AM 812 Views
True - 09/10/2012 02:54:12 AM 848 Views
Re: True - 09/10/2012 06:19:42 AM 728 Views
I am now visualizing WoT as a telenovela adaptation - 09/10/2012 06:59:11 PM 690 Views
everything about Lanfear screams TeleNovela! - 11/10/2012 04:38:03 AM 637 Views
Por ella, soy Luisa Therin? - 11/10/2012 05:44:32 AM 720 Views
All of the names would have to be longer and more pompous - 11/10/2012 03:54:30 PM 603 Views
Not in this particular telenovela adaptation - 11/10/2012 05:48:06 PM 937 Views
Re: So when the book/series ends, what will it have all meant? - 11/10/2012 10:52:01 AM 692 Views
It will have meant.. . - 11/10/2012 06:59:43 PM 681 Views
So... - 11/10/2012 07:05:41 PM 742 Views
For me, yes. - 11/10/2012 07:45:25 PM 607 Views
I would think for most the money spent wasn't too bad - 11/10/2012 08:07:49 PM 884 Views
I got my money's worth, oh yes. - 12/10/2012 07:59:58 PM 668 Views
I'm not sure it means anything. - 11/10/2012 08:10:45 PM 808 Views
I'm not sure there is too much meaning - 15/10/2012 05:57:57 PM 696 Views

Reply to Message