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Re: No, I think the difference has to be something else he does later DomA Send a noteboard - 26/10/2012 06:25:18 AM

I am listening to tGS right now and reached the point of DarkRand's meeting with Tuon when she almost agreed to the treaty. When describing what he wanted he included the "until my death" line and the treaty circumstances seemed to match what we can infer from Aviedha's visions. Add to that the way he had been treating the Aiel, and the possible ramifications from it, and you could end up with a future scenario much like Aviendha sees.

I think the Dark Rand future would have been even worse, like making the whole world into a Shadar Logoth situation.

Ta'veren might have been the thing that made Tuon break free. Remember, that's not a power, it's just a kind of bending of the Pattern so thinks work the way it wants. Rand and Loial talk early on about the inability of the Pattern to accommodate major changes. I think what goes on with ta'veren, all the whacky coincidences and whatnot, are symptoms of the Pattern loosening around them to allow for the sorts of changes that normally would not have a chance. In order to preserve resistance that might help shape Rand into what he needs to be, the ta'veren effect gave Tuon the chance for her defiance.

Additionally, the timing of the meeting seems like it would coincide rather well with Avi's journey. I wonder if Avi is seeing the repercussions of what would have happened if Tuon had not been able to resist DarkRand, and by doing so she (Tuon) invalidated the future Avi saw. There is even a statment from Tuon about how everything has now changed. Maybe Avi's journey and the insight and determination she gained is what allowed (through the pattern) Tuon to resist DarkRand's "ta'veran gaze"

I don't see how that could work, and like I said, the Tuon thing might have been good if they had been occurring simultaneously, but the future Aviendha saw was not one where Rand was as bad as he had sunk at that point. I think it is still very possible and he and/or she are going to have to do something to prevent it from coming to pass. I think whatever that is, THAT is going to be the breaking of the Aiel as foretold by the prophecy of Rhuidean.

In my mind, these 2 scenes appear to have been disconnected by the editing needed to create 2 books out of the first 2/3rds of Jordan's original vision of AMoL. Perhaps the original scene plotting had Avi's journey occurring between 2 chapters covering the meeting (broken with Tuon's decision point as the cliffhanger), or in a chapter that occurs before it.

Thoughts?

I think you're on the right track with the editing issue, but I'm not sure if Aviendha's test was supposed to contribute to the general attitude of doom and gloom afflicting the whole book until Rand's apotheosis, or if it was supposed to come later to warn the readers "even though he's good again, we're not out of the woods yet."

The ter'angreal is most unlikely to be able to take the DO's direct influence into account in predicting a future, and Rand's worse darkness started with his use of the TP. Min, Foretellers, Dreamers... none of them, at least belonging to the Light seems able to factor in the DO's direct actions as they do not belong in the Pattern.

The future Aviendha saw is one in which Rand's original plan to force a truce between the Westlands and the Seanchan went ahead. That future as a possibility could only be valid before Rand failed. Post-Epiphany, he might welcome an alliance with the Seanchan, but he would never impose it, nor claim it's valid until his death and after that to hell with it. And it's only a possibility and probably fairly tenuous, as it invalidated other possibilities seen in Egwene's Dreams.

Anyway, my feeling about Aviendha's vision is that she was shown an extrapolation of the future based on scraps set in stone in the Pattern (like her children), the current Pattern and "nexus points" (the sort of stuff preordained that foretellings and Viewings can predict) and data programmed by Aes Sedai into the machine and taken from foretellings by the Rhuidean AS or that they knew about.

The AS were adamant the Way of the Leaf had to survive, and given the kind of priorities they were seeing to at the time (they had Callandor and the Horn, were about to go make the Eye), it seems logical sending away the Aiel so the Way survived is also based on Foretelling. The Rhuidean AS ended up understanding at last the Aiel couldn't survive until the LB unless they became warriors in the meantime, but I'm sure they also foresaw an end to this, and it's why they not only programmed the machine to show the past, but also when the Dragon's "wife" came to it, to saw an extrapolation based on the present by which she might understand what the obsure original foretelling meant.

I'm betting if Bair isn't a DF she will return telling of a different vision, in which the Aiel are doomed by not abandonning their warrior culture again, but where it doesn't start the same way, as a result of Rand's bad, enforced Peace of Dragon barely surviving the first generation post TG, for the good reason Rand no longer would follow that plan.

The whole idea of the experience, I think, is to make the Aiel understand this has to be their Last Battle. Only those who return to the Way of the Leaf will survive as Aiel very long, the rest is doomed. And since it concerns the Aiel, not anyone, I'm pretty sure it's not about the Way, that anyone can perform, but about the Talent LTT called The Voice, which probably only exists in those with the proper genetics, pure blooded Aiel, and it requires a life of complete non-violence (yes, it means for the mixed blood Tinkers it's "so long suckers", they exist only to teach the pure blood Aiel their beliefs).

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Aviendha's 2nd trip though the pillars & Rand's meeting with Tuon HyogaRott - 25/10/2012 03:21:21 PM 945 Views

I don't think the timing quiet works darius_sedai - 26/10/2012 04:45:33 AM 442 Views

No, I think the difference has to be something else he does later Cannoli - 26/10/2012 04:53:39 AM 778 Views

Re: No, I think the difference has to be something else he does later DomA - 26/10/2012 06:25:18 AM 718 Views

Re: Aviendha's 2nd trip though the pillars & Rand's meeting with Tuon DomA - 26/10/2012 05:41:40 AM 950 Views

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<quote id="265115">
<quote id="265106"><quote id="264988">I am listening to tGS right now and reached the point of DarkRand's meeting with Tuon when she almost agreed to the treaty.  When describing what he wanted he included the "until my death" line and the treaty circumstances seemed to match what we can infer from Aviedha's visions.  Add to that the way he had been treating the Aiel, and the possible ramifications from it, and you could end up with a future scenario much like Aviendha sees.</quote>I think the Dark Rand future would have been even worse, like making the whole world into a Shadar Logoth situation.

Ta'veren might have been the thing that made Tuon break free.  Remember, that's not a power, it's just a kind of bending of the Pattern so thinks work the way it wants.  Rand and Loial talk early on about the inability of the Pattern to accommodate major changes.  I think what goes on with ta'veren, all the whacky coincidences and whatnot, are symptoms of the Pattern loosening around them to allow for the sorts of changes that normally would not have a chance.  In order to preserve resistance that might help shape Rand into what he needs to be, the ta'veren effect gave Tuon the chance for her defiance.

<quote>Additionally, the timing of the meeting seems like it would coincide rather well with Avi's journey.  I wonder if Avi is seeing the repercussions of what would have happened if Tuon had not been able to resist DarkRand, and by doing so she (Tuon) invalidated the future Avi saw.  There is even a statment from Tuon about how everything has now changed.  Maybe Avi's journey and the insight and determination she gained is what allowed (through the pattern) Tuon to resist DarkRand's "ta'veran gaze"</quote> I don't see how that could work, and like I said, the Tuon thing might have been good if they had been occurring simultaneously, but the future Aviendha saw was not one where Rand was as bad as he had sunk at that point.  I think it is still very possible and he and/or she are going to have to do something to prevent it from coming to pass.  I think whatever that is, THAT is going to be the breaking of the Aiel as foretold by the prophecy of Rhuidean.

<quote>In my mind, these 2 scenes appear to have been disconnected by the editing needed to create 2 books out of the first 2/3rds of Jordan's original vision of AMoL. Perhaps the original scene plotting had Avi's journey occurring between 2 chapters covering the meeting (broken with Tuon's decision point as the cliffhanger), or in a chapter that occurs before it.

Thoughts?
</quote>I think you're on the right track with the editing issue, but I'm not sure if Aviendha's test was supposed to contribute to the general attitude of doom and gloom afflicting the whole book until Rand's apotheosis, or if it was supposed to come later to warn the readers "even though he's good again, we're not out of the woods yet."</quote>

The future Aviendha saw is one in which Rand's original plan to force a truce between the Westlands and the Seanchan went ahead. That future as a possibility could only be valid before Rand failed. Post-Epiphany, he might welcome an alliance with the Seanchan, but he would never impose it, nor claim it's valid until his death and after that to hell with it.  And it's only a possibility and probably fairly tenuous, as it invalidated other possibilities seen in Egwene's Dreams.

Anyway, my feeling about Aviendha's vision is that she was shown an extrapolation of the future based on scraps set in stone in the Pattern (like her children), the current Pattern and "nexus points" (the sort of stuff preordained that foretellings and Viewings can predict) and data programmed by Aes Sedai into the machine and taken from foretellings by the Rhuidean AS or that they knew about.

The AS were adamant the Way of the Leaf had to survive, and given the kind of priorities they were seeing to at the time (they had Callandor and the Horn, were about to go make the Eye), it seems logical sending away the Aiel so the Way survived is also based on Foretelling.  The Rhuidean AS ended up understanding at last the Aiel couldn't survive until the LB unless they became warriors in the meantime, but I'm sure they also foresaw an end to this, and it's why they not only programmed the machine to show the past, but also when the Dragon's "wife" came to it, to saw an extrapolation based on the present by which she might understand what the obsure original foretelling meant.

I'm betting if Bair isn't a DF she will return telling of a different vision, in which the Aiel are doomed by not abandonning their warrior culture again, but where it doesn't start the same way, as a result of Rand's bad, enforced Peace of Dragon barely surviving the first generation post TG, for the good reason Rand no longer would follow that plan.

The whole idea of the experience, I think, is to make the Aiel understand this has to be their Last Battle. Only those who return to the Way of the Leaf will survive as Aiel very long, the rest is doomed.  And since it concerns the Aiel, not anyone, I'm pretty sure it's not about the Way, that anyone can perform, but about the Talent LTT called The Voice, which probably only exists in those with the proper genetics, pure blooded Aiel, and it requires a life of complete non-violence (yes, it means for the mixed blood Tinkers it's "so long suckers", they exist only to teach the pure blood Aiel their beliefs).

</quote>

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