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I do like to think I made a good effort though Cannoli Send a noteboard - 13/08/2015 03:41:53 AM

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See, the chief conflict Brandon had Egwene involved in for the three books was with Rand. But it was a very manufactured conflict. He wanted it to come across as both being half right, but had Egwene jump through different positions, sometimes to the very same person, again and again. So I really can't make anything of what RJ intended for Egwene.

For instance, her changes of heart on the issues concerning her quest to supplant Elaida. She jumped back and forth so much, that setting aside all questions of character preference and right and wrong, by the time she was raised, I have no idea what her beliefs truly are on the justification of the rebellion. My opinion, for example, is that both sides WERE a bit in the wrong. Elaida was, after spending nearly her entire Aes Sedai career abroad, slightly out of touch with the habits and customary practices of Tower politics. Her view of the power of the Amyrlin Seat was probably not too far from that of the Wondergirls in Salidar when Egwene was first raised, but the reality was that in practice, a prudent Amyrlin makes concessions and trades influence. Elaida followed the law, got elected, and as far as she was concerned, was now Amyrlin, and it was time to whip the Tower into shape for Tarmon Gaidon, except the Blues pitched a hissy-fit over losing a status they had begun to see as their due. They tried to fight reflexively, believing Elaida to be in the wrong, because it was not How Things Are Done, however legal her maneuvers, then found themselves in the position of having raised arms against the White Tower and a lawful Amyrlin, so they beat feet to Salidar to figure out their next move which they were probably thinking of a plea bargain of some kind. The initial Salidar rebellion was more like a demonstration of independence, kind of a grand scale version of Sitters refusing to stand for the Amyrlin on the first vote. No one changes her mind because her feet got washed. Anyone who stands on the second vote almost certainly intended to all along. Their initial refusal is a way of expressing their degree of agreement more precisely than a simple yes-no vote allows. So, in that light, the whole thing makes sense when you see them on the verge of giving up when Siuan arrives.

The whole thing started out as long-simmering political crises that had been suppressed by tradition and established practice and inertia suddenly came boiling out when one side pushed too hard and the other pushed back harder than they probably meant to. The withdrawal to Salidar was meant more of an opportunity for both sides to catch their breath and let cooler heads prevail, and come to an amicable settlement, rather than continue the bloodshed that probably shocked and horrified both factions as soon as it was done. And then Siuan showed up, and then she brought Egwene in, and the Black Ajah made their moves because the Shadow saw an opportunity, and things ended up where they did.

So I would say that the Reds and company might have behaved imprudently in their deposing Siuan, by not illicitly or without just cause. No matter where you stand on Egwene, you have to admit that one way or another, Siuan is exposed over the course of Egwene's arc as possessed of serious flaws in judgment, with some tendencies that probably would have been disastrous in an Amyrlin in the end times. While Egwene, IMO, handles Rand no better, at least Rand is emotionally invested in getting along with her, when he might have forced things more with Siuan or a more moderate version of Elaida who had not been driven as far from her original intentions as she had by Fain, Alviarin and the circumstances of her reign. I saw an awful lot of similarities in style and principle between Egwene and Elaida, and I don't mean that as a criticism of either (if of anyone, it is more of the White Tower's moribund institutionality), and not a lot of difference in Elaida and Siuan for all practical purposes. The only real issue of disagreement between the two, IMO, is whether or not Siuan or Elaida would make a better Amyrlin. For all her accusations of Elaida resenting her elevation, New Spring makes it abundantly clear that Siuan herself certain bore some unjust resentments of Elaida, which make Joline's grudge against Merilille seem positively mature.

The point I am getting at, is RJ did a fantastic job of setting up a plausible conflict, which satisfies the shallow readers who just want motion, physical conflict and One Power duels, while having layers and subtexts for the rest of us to peel back. He made it so there was a lot of shades of gray to it as you suggest was intended for the conflict between Egwene and Rand. But once Sanderson took over the resolution, he himself does not seem to have had sufficient grasp of the material to understand all the levels and layers, and resolve them satisfactorily. Like trying to suture an abdominal wound with only a middle school science understanding of human anatomy. Sure, it looks as simple as pulling the wound shut and sewing it up, but what about the layers of skin, fat & muscle and the peritoneum and all the other crap under there. If Sanderson can't remember Aiel terminology, or whose entourage a particular character belongs to, or how well a character has actually demonstrated an ability to write, or that Aviendha already independently came to the exact same conclusion he has Nakomi guide her to in such a torturous manner, or that WoT wouldn't have anything called a devilfish, it's a pretty good bet that he had no idea why the Aes Sedai were REALLY fighting, because it was never explicitly stated. So Egwene's opinions on right and wrong in the Tower conflict change like six times in tGS alone. So much of what she says in tGS directly contradicts earlier material, not just her prior opinions, but her certain knowledge of characters, that it is impossible to discern whether or not she is being sincere or manipulative. And Sanderson forfeits the reader's trust so fast, that we cannot even be sure if a discrepancy is deliberate or not, which further clouds the picture of where exactly she stands. My rule of thumb, for the most part, is that given how utterly devoid of subtlety he usually is, and how explicit and overt his exposition usually is, most discrepancies are exactly that. They are not him sneaking in little things to indicate all is not what it appears. They are not changes that lightly hint at altered mindsets of the PoV characters. They are simply mistakes. For example, in tGS, I wondered if people started referring to Rand as "the Dragon" instead of "the Dragon Reborn" or "the Lord Dragon" because they were seeing him as more and more of a remote figure more like the legendary being, instead of the human leader. But I think if Sanderson had intended that effect, he would have had someone awkwardly express as much to hit the reader over the head with it. I always read Elayne's infamous bath scene as a bit of instruction to the modern reader who is ignorant of what ruling entails, just how much work the job is for anyone who takes it seriously, how in spite of the trappings of luxury, she really does not get to enjoy them, that she only has servants waiting on her hand and foot to allow her use her own hands and feet to work some more. If Sanderson had been in charge of that scene, he might have missed the message altogether, and had Birgitte rebuke Elayne for wasting time with a bath with some bad jokes, or if RJ's notes had described in small words the effect he was trying to achieve with that scene, Sanderson would have had Elayne say "Wow, ruling is such hard work that I cannot even really enjoy this one simple pleasure I wanted for myself - a nice bath for a few minutes. Instead, I have to hear reports, endure interruptions for vital negotiations, and maintain a good facade so the servants will gossip the way I want!" In other words, the man has no subtlety. But how much was there that was supposed to be subtle, that he put in without understanding why RJ wanted it, and maybe botched the narration, and how much did he see as superfluous and cut, because he missed what it would signal to literate fans, and so on.


Whether you liked her in the earlier books or not, the Egwene of the later books is too incoherent to judge as anything.

This is true, and I contemplated not even going through these books for the Egwene's Evil thing. But I was doing this more for the fun of it than anything, and I figured if nothing else, it might be a fun challenge to hammer some sense out of Sanderson's mess. And I think I've gained a certain advantage in the debate by going over territory that is less thoroughly explored.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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