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IDK, that's a bit outside the implied wheelhouse of Compulsion and Aran'gar Cannoli Send a noteboard - 03/12/2015 03:13:04 AM

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I really appreciate this breakdown of all the negative aspects of Egwene's character, there were a lot of things in it that I never noticed before, or didn't put together.

That said, it brings something else into focus for me that I haven't seen anyone else mention in this thread or it's replies...



Egwene was under the direct influence of one of the Forsaken for weeks or was it months? She was being put under compulsion daily. How many of these strange reversals of opinion and character flaws could be a direct result of that? She was all about removing the oaths, until she wasn't. She wanted the Aes Sedai to be more engaged and part of society, then later she worries about it? She started out her quest to become Amyrilyn to make sure they didn't mishandle Rand, then she mishandles him, etc.

The MOST I'd give Aran'gar credit for, would be her OOC acceptance of Halima, and making excuses for her odd behavior. I'm even sort of skeptical about that, since she clearly bucks Halima's wishes on at least one occasion. I think at most, she might have been using a variation of whatever Lanfear was doing in tGH to make Rand, Hurin & Loial fawn all over her. I think that would be some sort of weave that creates a general aura that inclines people to think the best of the subject, without actually imposing on their free will.

Egwene's reversals and flips were all on point. She had one fixed goal, and she changed positions and opinions the way a ship captain changes his heading while maintaining a course for the same general direction. Egwene was all about concentrating the power of female channelers into one organization, and concentrating the control of that organization into one pair of hands. She changed her mind on the Three Oaths because she came to see how it serves those goals. Losing the Oaths would remove a point of commonality between the sisters and the Ajahs, and remove an obstacle to the Tower balkanizing. Once she accepted that point, she didn't consider whether it was good or bad, she just ditched her plan for reform. Now if her goal was to get power in order to eliminate the Oaths, that would be a radical change. But if her goal was to get power, and eliminating the Oaths was just a thing for which she hoped to use that power, she hasn't changed in a major way.


I'm pretty sure it would have to be a very subtle bit of compulsion, but it was being done over an extended period of time. Is it any wonder some of the negative aspects of her personality were magnified? Halima couldn't just make sweeping changes without people noticing for the most part, but exaggerating her natural tendencies and making her jealous of her friends and thus putting a wedge between them, that's exactly the sort of thing I would expect a forsaken to do.

Some Forsaken, maybe. However, these are mostly very short-term, short-sighted people. Their essential quality is selfishness and serving their self-interest, which precludes incremental long-term stuff. Sure, they make very cautious moves and only things they are certain about, but that's not the same as setting gradual changes in motion. They're more about being disruptive and destructive. If she knew about Egwene's intention to drop the Oaths, that would be something Aran'gar would encourage, because she was aiming at disunity. That it might be better for the world in the long term would not be a concern for Aran'gar, because she's fixated on the immediate struggle. None of the Forsaken care about the big picture beyond impressing the Dark One. Their only concern for the state of the world is the degree to which their pleasures and desires are catered. While some, like Ishamael, for instance, might take into account subtleties and get trends started with incremental changes, Aran'gar is about as far that type as the Forsaken get. She's a self-indulgent hedonist. The furthest she can go is spreading rumors about bad things the Tower and Elaida are up to, and encouraging the rebels to hostile actions against the Tower loyalists, all to increase hard feelings and decrease the likelihood of their cooperation when Tarmon Gai'don comes about. She might have imposed negative ideas toward Rand on Egwene, but that does not explain her issues in tSR, tFoH & LoC, before she ever meets Halima. Nor does it explain KoD, tGS, ToM & aMoL, after she is parted from Halima.

If anyone had anything to do with exacerbating a mildly negative attitude toward Rand, I think it was Padan Fain. Literally every other person to have extended contact with him shows effects. He specifically notes that he has made Elaida & Pedron Niall more suspicious and paranoid, especially regarding Rand. We see Elaida's difficulty in trusting anyone but Red sisters, and not even all of them, and her inclining toward alcohol abuse. Niall kept his knowledge of the Seanchan so close, and waited so long to confirm his intel (when he already had better information on the Seanchan than just about any other ruler, and in violation of his rules of information) and gather his forces, that he gave Asunawa & Valda time to plot and act against him. We see the troops following "Ordeith" and we see it in Bornhald's obstinacy on the day of the final Trolloc attack on Emond's field. The all-but-rabid guy who confronts Perrin is a far cry from the man who stood up to the establishment over Morgase's treatment, despite her being effectively an enemy of the Children. We see it as well in the deterioration of the guards and fellow prisoners in the Fal Dara dungeon. Egwene herself cites the differences she's noticed in the time she's been visiting him. And in spite of all this, she is the one person to be complete untouched? I think not. Fain was always trying to target people close to Rand. He would absolutely have tried with Egwene. Her lack of overt symptoms could be attributed to Fain using a greater degree of subtlety, having relatively limited access to her, being separated from Shadar Logoth and the dagger (and he might have been the origin of Egwene's notion to bring Mat down for a visit - there is absolutely no rational reason to bring any of them down there, but Egwene was determined to do so, like she was looking for an excuse), or still being new to his powers.

None of that entirely exculpates Egwene, since she was the one who decided to go visit a dangerous and evil man without telling anyone, as well as her self-centered behavior throughout EotW indicating that she certainly gave Fain a foundation on which to build.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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IDK, that's a bit outside the implied wheelhouse of Compulsion and Aran'gar - 03/12/2015 03:13:04 AM 1267 Views

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