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thanks for sharing this ... the one I worked out several years ago is pretty similar darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 23/11/2015 07:06:47 PM

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View original postMoiraine is rock bottom at 66(54). There are 66 levels for women and 6 more on top for men. This was stated wrong in the OP article, but deducible from the other strengths given and the obvious connection to the numerology of linking.

Talk about shoddy editing... I'm absolutely appalled.

If Moiraine is rock bottom that would make her as strong as Morgase, who is not actually a functional channeler i.e. spending all day trying to move a scarf. It's also likely that someone like Morgase can't even use an angreal, though Moiraine claimed she could.

It's more likely Moiraine can channel effectively but weakly, like Sorilea... but I digress. It seems like any sort of previously organized system died with the author.


No, it's just an inconsistency in the OP entry. The system itself is 100% cohesive in the notes. (There are a few inconsistencies but they aren't structural.) And maybe Team Jordan saw something in the notes that we didn't, but I tend to doubt it in this particular case. I was concerned until they posted Serafelle's entry and it was clear that they were literally copying the power levels exactly as they appeared in the notes.

Moiraine's strength is given in the notes. Sorilea's strength was still under consideration in the notes that we saw; he gave a range of strengths for her. We couldn't find a strength for Morgase but her strength was implied to be 57(45) or slightly higher because this is the point where the ability to lift anything with the Power drops to a feather. That was in the COT-KOD notes (roughly; the notes aren't clearly delineated like that).

Linked below is a spreadsheet I made for a friend a while back, based on a list that Dom and I (mostly Dom) made last year (which is slightly more detailed with references). This is kind of a half-assed job but it should be a fair representation of power levels in RJ's notes. (We couldn't consult the big Aes Sedai bio file, but there was a ton of cross-referencing so it didn't matter much.) I made the spreadsheet before the Companion came out and I haven't edited it since except to remove a couple of notes I had made that are irrelevant now.

I don't know why you would think Morgase wouldn't be able to use an angreal, other than the fact that her weakness prevented her from being fully trained. Moiraine doesn't have that problem. She would be a functional non-channeler without the sa'angreal, but she has years of training and experience behind her.

I would say it's possible that Moiraine is not rock-bottom if not for the fact that Morgase and Sorilea are both clearly above her. That's what made us so sure that the connection to the linking numerology was intentional; if Moiraine is really weaker than Sorilea and Morgase, then power levels below her shouldn't be worth mentioning. And 66 is a nice, familiar number. Only 3 ++ male levels were given in the notes we saw (partial Forsaken list), but since Ishamael was ++1 it was clear that these numbers were descending, ++ because they were above the female scale, and RJ had always hinted that there were only a few male levels above Lanfear. So why not 6 levels above the 66?

Keep in mind we had to figure out how the system worked on our own, and no doubt Team Jordan had to do the same. There was no communication on this; they did their thing and we did ours. It took us about a week to get a really good grip on how the system worked, but once we did it all made sense.


Most of my notes turned out pretty close, but there are a few surprises

I have to say I'm surprised that Graendal is technically the second weakest Forsaken. That doesn't match the books particularly well IMO. I expected Mesaana at level 4 (although stronger than Moghedien) and Graendal at level 2, although still weaker than Cyndane (RJ did state that there were gradations even within levels). Semirhage I also expected at level 3 along with Nynaeve, but I'll admit that this was more due to a quote from Brandon that he thought they were "about the same" (and an RJ quote stating Nynaeve was "about an average Forsaken strength) and that Mesaana was one of the weaker Forsaken. But this just seems to validate the small difference between the top several levels to me as Graendal was clearly willing to go toe-to-toe with Lanfear and with an angreal that pushed her only to male strength levels was able to take down both Cyndane and Moghedien. It also highlights that skill is vastly more important than strength.

Elayne/Egwene level is pretty much exactly where I expected it to be (roughly halfway between Nynaeve and Moiraine), and Aviendha being lower in current strength jives with the books very well. Obviously the Cadsuane level has been discussed, and IMO from the books she should be level 9 rather than 5, but again, the difference here isn't massive seeming, just inconsistent with quotes about Elayne/Egwene being stronger than her.

Other random stuff I found inconsistent:

Annoura was a little surprising given how she burned herself out. Seems like she should have been closer to 23/24 as that would have put her close to the strength necessary to open a gateway, and made her burning out more plausible since at her stated level she wouldn't have even gotten close to the amount necessary to open a gateway before burning out. And at one point it was stated that after Daigian, Kumira was the weakest in the group (can't remember off the top of my head if Annoura was actually with Cadsuane by then or if she came in later).

Obviously I think Kumira seems much stronger than expected given the commentary from the books that she was "barely" stronger than Daigian. From her list strength she was much closer to the other women than Daigian and according to the companion she was actually stronger than Annoura.

Seems from the Companion that Level 21/22 is the Traveling minimum strength, Merilille at 22 could not Travel on her own, but Ashmainalle, also a 22 was able to Travel so she was either enough stronger than Merilille or had more Talent, but I don't recall any woman weaker than this being able to Travel. This also seems about the Strength cut off for women to gain political clout (i.e. Jesse Bilal is a 21, Suana 22 etc...) and pretty much every Sister lower than this level starts getting bossed around by stronger women, with a few exceptions for the "too young Sitters". Most women in the mid-20s and 30s or lower are being practically ignored by any of the women strong enough to Travel and only trotted out if they have a specific ability. Seems like if you wanted a career in Tower politics you needed to be at least a 25 Strength.

This matches pretty close to the books IMO.

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Yikes - 22/11/2015 02:59:04 AM 858 Views
Hopefully Dom will chime in here... - 22/11/2015 03:28:24 AM 1322 Views
thanks for sharing this ... the one I worked out several years ago is pretty similar - 23/11/2015 07:06:47 PM 818 Views

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