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Try reading the books again. You seem remarkably ignorant of what transpires in them. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 02/05/2017 03:13:56 PM

A few questions ... how is Egwene a bigger bitch than:

Faile: what did Egwene do that can compare to Faile manipulating Loyal into taking her into the Ways?

Manipulating Rand into being reserved for her exclusive marital use, and then planning to abandon him, for the slim chance at a position of authority down the road? Terrorizing Nynaeve in Tel'Aran'Rhiod for no good reason, because she believes that Nynaeve would find out she was there behind the Wise Ones' backs, and tell them. Setting aside that Egwene knows of a certainty that Nynaeve dislikes Melaine, and in that same trip, refused to make herself accountable to them, no Two Rivers person, other than Egwene, ever rats out another one to strangers, with exceptions only for love interests. Faile's action was immature, but did no harm, and only forestalled Perrin's attempts to curtail her own actions. While she didn't necessarily have the right to be with Perrin that she thought she did, neither did he, strictly speaking, have right to tell her where she could and could not go. Perrin was manipulating Loial too, only not as effectively, with him playing on the Ogier's fear of marriage in hopes it would make him more amenable to a trip he knew Loial absolutely did not ever want to make. Faile had not been there all the times when Aes Sedai pressured Loial into such journeys against his wishes, but Perrin had. And in any case, she didn't actually effectively interfere with anything or prevent anyone from doing anything. All she did was exasperate Loial and trigger Perrin's Two Rivers women-protection psychosis. Egwene not only commited genuine assault against Nynaeve, she did so out of an unfounded mistrust of her friend's loyalty. Nynaeve left the Two Rivers in part to save Egwene from the grasp of powerful witch-types. Why would anyone think Nynaeve would betray Egwene to one she personally dislikes, who has made lewd comments about her fiance? Egwene never even has the grace to admit she was wrong, though Faile tries to rationalize that Perrin "forced" her trivial offense. Instead, she giggles with delight over having gained a psychological advantage over her friend, and looks forward to abusing her trauma in the future.
She was willing to risk the lives of Perrins family and every single person in the Two Rivers just to win an argument.

That's an absurd exaggeration. She was not endangering anyone, and she was completely in ignorance of the stakes for the Aybarras. Her whole motivation was to help him, and by extension them. And had they still been alive when she & Perrin arrived, they almost certainly would have been in lockstep agreement with Faile about the idiocy of his plan to appease the Children of the Light by turning himself in. That was the real reason Perrin did not want her along. He has always had a streak of moral cowardice, which is why he foudn the Way of the Leaf so appealing. He knows in his heart that it would be wrong and cowardly to surrender himself and leave his family & friends at the mercy of the Children, rather than standing up for what is right, but he would rather die than kill. Which is a perfectly acceptable mentality when it is only your ass on the line, but not when you have responsibilities to others. Perrin might accept duty and responsibility with more outward willingness than Mat, but deep down, he wants to avoid it just as badly, and while he isn't quite at the "lighter than a feather" point, he certainly isn't thrilled at the scant obligations he has incurred just to that point. Faile would later go on to be a key figure in getting Perrin to understand and to live up to his obligations over the course of his character arc. Egwene only teaches people patience in dealing with her bullshit.



At every turn she lies and manipulates Perrin and finds it funny that she's doing it. Murdering Masema in cold blood (justified or not) and lying straight to Perrins face about it.

That was later, and she was giving him plausible deniability. She did not do it for amusement, she did it because if he knew, he'd be responsible, as the leader of the group. It was morally wrong and probably misguided, but it was also urged on by those Wise Ones Egwene loves and admires so much. The deception was for Perrin's protection and to maintain his honor, not to manipulate him and get her way. At that point in their relationship, she could have asked for Maseema's head on a platter and gotten it from him, but he would have regretted it later and tortured himself for his legit guilt. She took the responsibility of doing her own dirty work on herself.
This woman abandoned her duty to defend the world from the Blight when she chose to run off and become a Hunter of the Horn and she subsequently abandoned that oath to follow Perrin.
And that was wrong, but gets a pass because by the time we meet Faile, it is history & backstory, not actions we witness. No one goes around giving Egwene crap for whatever immaturity caused her to get her braid a year older than normal, in spite of her conscious intention to get it early (except me, but only for the sake of completion). Furthermore, as many people are quick to point out in excuse of Egwene's errors in judgment, it was the act of a teenaged girl. The difference between the two women is, Egwene has been granted adult status for the entire duration of the series, while Faile is still morally and legally a child. She is not yet old enough to braid her hair, figuratively speaking, when she is reunited with her parents, while Egwene is past that milestone for the whole run of the books. The distinction between the two women is that only one of them is literally & legally old enough to know better. And Faile doesn't abandon her Hunter's Oath. She is drawn by a ta'veren and rationalizes her following Perrin & co as another path to the Horn, shortly before learning that the Horn has been found, and there is no point to her Hunt.
Siuan: Literally lied and manipulated every Aes Sedai in the rebel camp to get her vengeance on Elaida, in and of itself that doesn't seem all that bad until you stop to think she KNOWS that what she is doing is materially harming the Lights capabilities and keeping hundreds of Channelers at odds with the DR and is essentially betraying her own lifelong cause to find and Shepard the DR
Well said! She is a horrible, immoral and frequently wrong person...whose biggest admirer and greatest apologist is none other than Egwene herself!
Tuon: seriously you think she's compassionate? This is the woman who knows damn well that she has enslaved thousands of other women for an ability she herself possesses

Except she does not possess that ability any more than Raen owns a sword - they both possess the potential capacity, but each refuses to pick it up, believing it to be wrong. She might be incorrect about it being wrong, but she is not a hypocrite. She would be a hypocrite if she forced other sul'dam to be collared and made to channel, while refusing herself, but she never does this. The only people she collars are Aes Sedai trying to bully her. We would have applauded Rand doing the same to Siuan or Moiraine or Cadsuane at various points in the series. Joline is considered immature by just about everyone to offer the slightest bit of character analysis, and she certainly wasn't going to offer Tuon the promises Moiraine and Cadsuane gave Rand, and was also trying to interfere in the business of a sovereign nation and abuse her advantage in power to intimidate an apparently helpless woman. Joline is one of the people for whom the a'dam is a reasonable exception, as even Mat seems to agree, despite his objections to the collar in principle.
and sits ideally by while thousands die in the name of her own power.
How many people died while Egwene exacerbated the split in the Tower and refused to mend it, simply because the split was her path to power? And when did Tuon sit idly by while thousands died? There were mistakes made by generals her mother sent out, not Tuon. She herself reprimanded Suroth for the fact that a single individual showd signs of fighting in what was once one of the most violent cities in the region, and rebuked the costly venture of the campaign toward Illian.
The fact that she's not actually a sociopath and has feelings for a man doesn't make her a good person, it simply makes her human.
Except she was raised in circumstance where she could be excused for finding that humanity a remote and abstract concept, and where her potential lack of empathy could at least be explained, if not justified. What is Egwene's excuse? She was not raised at any remote or remove from normal people but no significant leader in the series is as detached or indifferent to the concerns of normal people as is Egwene.
Elayne: Honestly, Elayne is endearing only because she is a Princess.

I don't get this at all. Why does being a princess make her endearing? In fact, she gets a lot of criticism that is unfounded for her personally, but is due to assumptions and stereotypes based on her royal status.
But she's dumb as a stump most of the time, making decisions based 100% on how she's feeling in the moment with no regard to long term consequences of her actions.

She is always putting her obligations and rational decisions ahead of her feelings. She spends months in the same building as the love of her life and does nothing to give him (or anyone) so much of a hint of her feelings because she respects Egwene's prior claim, even though it is plain Egwene is not acting on it, and because her head and training tell her he is an unsuitable match. That is a thing that literally never comes up with any other relationship in the whole series. She freely expresses her emotions, but she always has a rational reason for her actions, and always operates by a code or set of rules, and seldom for her own unwarranted advancement. Egwene is purely ambitious, she was not raised from birth to see the Amyrlin Seat as her duty and whatever someone else might do while sitting in the Seat as partially due to her failures. That is what Elayne has been taught from the cradle, as is explicitly stated in the books, by more than one character. You bring up adolescent rebellion as a justification for Egwene bucking characters of quantifiably superior knowledge and experience, and objectively superior judgment, but Elayne's expressed frustrations with occasional cracks in the life that has been imposed on her is acting on her emotions?
She runs away twice, even after she has been informed of the consequences of her actions.

Accepting punishment to do one's duty is generally considered admirable by decent and honorably people. She stuck by her friends and the cause of the Light. As Moiraine says in the first book, there is no better justification than opposing the Shadow. Elayne twice chooses to leave the Tower, with the permission of Aes Sedai (she did not run away either time), both times after learning of actions taken by the Shadow and in reaction to news of the Black Ajah. As the only one of the Wondergirls to actually join the Green Ajah, she, at least, was acting on her vocation.
She risked starting a war between the Tower and Andor.

That's absurd nonsense. The only culpability in a war is between the people who actually start and fight it. Morgase's overreactions are not Elayne's fault, and you have a lot of nerve calling even imgainary people stupid, when you bring THIS topic up comparing Elayne to Egwene, who actually started a war!
She ignores her duty to retake the Throne for months after learning of her mothers "fate" causing civil war to linger in Andor, how many deaths can be laid at her feet for not returning to Andor earlier? Sure you can say the Rebels kept her from it and that would be partially true, but ultimately she chose to not fight them in this because it suited her desires.
It DIDN't suit her desires! She WANTED to go! Are you mental? The very first thing we see in LoC is her in a fury because Siuan didn't tell her the rebels were preparing an embassy to Andor without her. For someone you accuse of always acting on her feelings, the news that her romantic rival was going to meet the object of their affections should have cemented her determination to get there as well. Aviendha, Elayne's closest confidante once Min leaves, notes that Elayne is often worried about Andor, but she considers her other duties more important. All sorts of your ilk defend Egwene's potential, and the Tower's history of, interference in Andoran politics and their supremacy based on some theoretical and nebulous greater good, but now you are condemning Elayne for prioritizing a physical danger to her people? The drought she was attempting to alleviate by seeking the Bowl of the Winds was A. the work of the Dark One (see above, re: Shadow priorities) and B. the greatest danger to her homeland. As soon as the weather is fixed, Elayne Travels to Andor. At the time she set out to find the Bowl, there was literally no one else available who could match her ability with the weather or with ter'angreal. She was the indispensible person for the mission. If Nynaeve had been the queen-to-be you could make a case (in a blinkered, nonsensical, devoid-of-context way) that she could have left the Bowl mission to others, but Elayne had the critical skills necessary. Also, at the time she was doing this stuff, someone was overseeing Andor and looking out for the peace and well-being of the country, and that someone a man she herself had tutored governance and administration, so she not only had the measure of his confidence and good intentions, but she also knew that they shared an understanding of rulership. Rand was as good a sub as she could ask for, however politically unfortunate a choice he might be in Andor's eyes. But this is yet another case where the double standard is applied to Elayne. For any other set of characters in the series, clinging to old traditional prerogatives in the face of Tarmon Gaidon and their apocalyptic times is to be condemned, but somehow it is always Elayne's or Rand's fault that the Andorans are just as petulant and uncooperative as Tairens or Aes Sedai. Aristocratic privilege is stil aristicractic privilege, whether they are claiming judicial immunity, or the right to having a say in picking a ruler, regardless of the practical facts of the matter (or their conspicious silence when "Gaebril" was usurping their rights, but had demonstrated he wasn't taking any of their bullshit).
Cadsuane/Lelaine/Romanda: you claim it's okay because they "owned their bitichiness" ... how does Egwene not own hers? Romanda and Lelaine are playing at politics and acting as though nothing has changed in the world despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.

And Egwene is their playmate. She spends most of the latter half of the series fuming over how they are arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, while wondering where is the advantage for her when the team sent out to Shadar Logoth comes back with news of an iceberg and Moria proposes contacting a tug boat. And Romanda at least, was willing to try purging the Black Ajah. Egwene didn't say anything, but opposed it mentally, citing it was being politically unwise. In Egwene's eyes, upsetting followers who might decide not to listen to you is the gravest sin a ruler can commit. Remember she felt the same way when Rand forbade recreational arson, theft and racially-motivated murder to the Aiel. The best credit you can give Egwene regarding her thoughts is that she didn't REALLY disagree with Romanda's proposal for an inquisition, but simply didn't want Romanda to successfully carry out any policies, because it would help her politically. Which still means she puts political position ahead of sensible actions.
Cadsuane is a straight up bully who walks around with her arsenal of OP equipment which makes her essentially untouchable.

That doesn't make her a bully, it just means all the people who called her stupid for confronting Rand head on were wrong. It's not bullying to use superior power to get the right thing done, it is bullying to use power over others for its own sake or for personal gratification, and to establish one's own supremacy. Cadsuane explicitly stated, under the Three Oaths, that she was doing things for Rand's own good.
She doesn't even respect of follow the cultural rules of her AS world.

Because they are stupid bullshit. We only like the rules, because they would put our favorite characters at the top.
Sure those customs are ridiculous to all outsiders, but she's still the first person to dismiss Nynaeve's rank in the hierarchy based totally on keeping with rules spthat she herself never followed. Hypocracy at its finest.
When does she NOT follow the rules about who is and isn't an Aes Sedai? She dismisses Nynaeve's claim to Aes Sedai status, because Nynaeve has not sworn the Three Oaths. This is not a unique mindset to Cadsuane, and was previously established elswhere in the books, with other sisters treating Egwene's fake newbies the same way, until Nynaeve and Elayne BULLIED them into accepting their own status. All Nynaeve has going for her is her appointment by someone who is not lawfully the Amyrlin Seat. It is only hypocritical on Cadsuane's part if Cadsuane had claimed Aes Sedai status for someone who has not sworn the Oaths. Which she did not. Words have meanings. You can't just randomly and illogically apply them however it suits you emotionally.
Alanna: I rather liked Alanna, she actually has a fine character; noble, honest and accountable to her own mistakes. Then she raped Rand with her bond.

Then? That was the first thing she did that stood out, aside from trying to creepily inviegle herself into novices' affairs, and arrogantly assume too great a responsibility for things that were not her own. The same kind of thing for which everyone gives Rand and Perrin and Elayne crap.
Even despite that Alanna continues to follow the moral code of her people and the Aes Sedai by treating Rand as her true Warder and doing everything in her power to protect him, even unto her death.
The only danger from which she tried to protect him, was one she herself imposed upon him through the bond. Beyond that, she let other sisters push their way into dealing with him, despite her bond, and let them get Mayener soldiers killed rather than use the Power in remote safety to defend Rand. Because she didn't REALLY think of him as a Warder, but as an object of power. If she DID think of him so, she would have brought that up when they rationalized their decision to lead men to unnecessary deaths, and by the "last extreme" clause, force them to act according to Perrin's plan. But even if she does live up to her status, that is still meaningless, like buying anniversary cards for your rape victim.
Adelorna (and the other Tower Ajah Heads): abandoned Elaida to a life of slavery purely out of convenience. They decided Egwene was the better person to support so they bailed on the woman they supported for months as Amyrlin. Potentially this was an impossible task, but one would think the AS would demand the return of their own during the LB negotiations.
Not to mention her hypocrisy in indulging Egwene's spurious affiliation with the Green Ajah.
Egwene: was mean to Nynaeve and followed her path so she could gain the skills necessary to do her part to fight the shadow.
Skills that other people obtained without lying. For all Egwene's supposed commitment to acquiring skills, she never really used them, or not to as good effect as people who spent their time trying to actively do good. Egwene was "mean" to Nynaeve in the way that Alanna was "mean" to Rand. The major difference is that there was more malice in Egwene's intent than in Alanna's. That you can even allude to that incident in a post where you call Cadsuane a bully while positively comparing her to Egwene is proof of the absolute nonsense in your rationalizations.
She even ensured that her friends had a way to stay in communication with her and taught them what they could learn as she learned it (at great risk to her own continuing education).

In the first place, staying in communication with Egwene didn't really help them all that much. In the second, VERIN, provided the means, which Egwene withheld from them out of jealousy and selfishness, until the last moment, and begrudged them every second of experience in T'A'R until she had no choice. This is like Tuon's humanity - turning the ring over to them was the very least Egwene could do at that point. It doesn't make her good or generous, it simply means that she avoided complete selfishness at the last possible moment. There isn't much about Egwene teaching her friends either. Amys curtailed her first meeting with Elayne and after that, the Wise Ones did the talking and thanks to their closer acquaintance with Egwene, begrudged Nynaeve and Elayne everything they got, and then tried to stop them when they proved capable of achieving things on their own. Nynaeve and Elayne learned the fundamental principles of T'A'R on their own, honing their skills together as a bridge for their personality conflicts and cabin fever and as therapy for Nynaeve's PTSD from her encounters with Moghedian and Egwene.

And you keep bringing up the Dream skills in support of Egwene, when that should be her greatest embarrassment. It's like bringing up the Super Bowl in discussions of why Tom Brady is better than Eli Manning.


She went against AS principles to fight by Rands side in Cairhien

You condemn Elayne for instantly voluteering to help Rand when an Aes Sedai says he is threatened by the Shadow, but praise Egwene for finally agreeing after three days of avoidance, to help fight genocidal racist savages, after seeing two towns that have been subjected to their barbarity? Normal decent people don't need three days to do such a thing! You praise her for going against rules that she herself embraces for convenience, which hinder no one else among their circle, because they don't have such misplaced reverence for one of the most flawed institutions in the series. Egwene is a complete and utter hypocrite, and a coward as well. She was ready willing and eager to cast off those rules throughout tDR for her own convenience, while the "bad-tempered" Nynaeve was constantly remonstrating with her and insisting that there were non-lethal alternatives. But YOU frame that conflict over a serious moral issue, with an objectively correct position, in terms of adolescent rebellion. Adolescent rebellion is "I am going to make unfortunate fashion and pointless entertainment choices, and mutilate my body in ways I will later regret", not "I wish to visit excessive violence upon the persons of people I do not need to kill, when I despite having personally experienced the capacity within my abilities for non-harmful & total restraint for enemies." Egwene's bloodlust when in fear of her own safety is to be laughed away, but her reluctance to participate in a fight to stop barbarians who are literally at the gates, looking to murder, pillage and enslave indiscriminately is priaseworthy? And let's be honest. It had nothing to do with Aes Sedai principles, but her own cowardly reluctance to expose that the Three Oaths did not, in fact, bind her. That was a revelation that would have to wait until Egwene's last moments with the Aiel, not actual necessity or lives depending on it or anything.
and helped him manipulate the Tower AS whenever she could.

You are descending into moondog-like levels where I can't tell if you are the worst liar since Ananias, have the worst reading comprehension on a book-based website or are the most ignorant WoT-reader since Brandon Sanderson. Egwene NEVER helped Rand manipulate the Tower. She tried to hide him from the Tower before either of them knew he was the Dragon Reborn and not someone who SHOULD be gentled, when he needed the Tower's help to keep him from killing people. She sided with Moiraine's attempts to follow the plans of a woman with whom they had been out of contact for so long that they had no idea she had been deposed for months, and who had made those plans in ignorance of a wealth of information since learned about Rand and his other roles in the world. She said nothing helpful when he was reading the letters from Elaida and Alviarin, but would later completely rewrite the events in her mind to have no basis in reality, and she tried to manipulate Rand in his dealings with the Tower embassy. She didn't offer any help to Rand with them, aside from mocking his correct perception of Galina's alignment with Alviarin, while keeping him in the dark about the true nature of the split, which impeded his understanding of Alviarin's position. Rand concealed her from the sisters, when by her precious Tower laws, she should have been turned over to them, saying that she might notice something he didn't see, though he was plainly being ironic when he mentioned the possibility of her sharing whatever information she might have gleaned with his help. And he turned out to be right, since she didn't give him any useful information, beyond the fact that she was more concerned with him treating them according to their station than protecting him from their manipulations.
So a minute of indulgeance in taking Nynaeve down a peg or two doesn't seem all that bitchy to me, certainly not nice, but people make way to much of a handful of these actions of the face of her personal sacrifices to save the universe from destruction.

Rand saved the universe from destruction. Egwene finally did something possibly unselfish at the very end of her life, when she was being afflicted by a broken Warder bond, because she bonded the biggest moron in the series, because even he was better at threat assessment than she. She sacrificed her life at the very moment when her life was least precious and valuable to her, when she most wanted to be done with it. Not much of a sacrifice. It's not even like George Mason taking the controls from Jack Bauer, because he was already dying, because at least he was acting to save a specific life. And considering the effects of the Power on channelers, Egwene's "sacrifice" might better be compared to a depression victim overdosing on uppers. At a moment of emotional pain and suffering, she overdoes it with something that makes you feel excited and happy and euphoric. Suspect is the very least I'd term her sacrifice. She's not even up there with Ingtar, or Ellidyr of Pen-Larcu, or Boromir. That last guy was a hero who made one mistake and paid for it. Ingtar made an act of redemption, at least admitting his fault. Ellidyr made up for being a dick. Egwene never admitted her wrongdoing or her mistreatment of her friends, let alone her assault on Nynaeve, instead offering rationalizations for her high-handedness, that I won't even repeat, because not even Egwene deserves to be blamed for Sanderson's insane moral logic.

Fine, Egwene did a somewhat decent and useful thing at the end, but she never had a Road to Damascus moment, never made amends for all the stuff for which she drew criticism years before any one had any clue how she would die (almost all post-TG speculation by fans tended to assume Egwene's ongoing reforms of the Tower). And as far as self-sacrificing actions go in genre fiction, it really isn't all that much. Lan's sacrifice is no less impressive for his surviving it in spite of the worst Demandred could do, nor Rand's despite the gimmicky mechanism of his particular survival. All three of them willingly went to their deaths to achieve a greater good, it's just that the other two had more to live for, and Egwene's method and timing was somewhat...convenient.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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I'm ready to continue my WOT read through. - 04/03/2017 09:05:09 PM 1482 Views
I've been thinking about reading again, too. - 04/03/2017 09:23:46 PM 789 Views
Re: I've been thinking about reading again, too. - 05/03/2017 09:23:05 AM 842 Views
The favourite character thing is true. - 04/03/2017 10:52:08 PM 951 Views
Re: I'm ready to continue my WOT read through. - 06/03/2017 06:53:12 PM 1004 Views
Re: I'm ready to continue my WOT read through. - 15/03/2017 02:46:06 AM 691 Views
Nynaeve is Most Improved on a reread, I think - 04/04/2017 07:55:11 PM 976 Views
it always amuses me how much people on this forum hate her - 05/04/2017 03:00:19 AM 1038 Views
Re: it always amuses me how much people on this forum hate her - 09/04/2017 03:51:51 AM 792 Views
Re: it always amuses me how much people on this forum hate her - 11/04/2017 06:02:22 AM 963 Views
Re: it always amuses me how much people on this forum hate her - 02/05/2017 12:51:13 PM 1107 Views
You are proving my point - 04/05/2017 04:17:34 AM 1024 Views
Reading this again - 14/04/2017 04:30:08 AM 1046 Views
Try reading the books again. You seem remarkably ignorant of what transpires in them. - 02/05/2017 03:13:56 PM 1283 Views
That's absurd nonsense - 02/05/2017 03:15:37 PM 953 Views
I'm more than half done with The Fires of Heaven on my reread - 21/04/2017 04:20:48 AM 865 Views

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