Hm. Let me explain. I meant it more like... when you watch the season finale of a show.
beetnemesis Send a noteboard - 10/11/2009 07:26:00 AM
Like... the end of Season 5 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Throughout the season, there had been a lot of stand-alone episodes, such as Buffy fighting a troll, or a Buffy robot, or recovering a mystical orb thingie, and a lot more.
In the S5 finale, Buffy is fighting a Valley Girl God, and suddenly whacks her in the face with the troll's hammer. And they used the Buffybot as a decoy. And they tried to use the orb against the god.
So yes, these things in tGS made sense... but it also had an element of self reference that is rarely seen in WoT.
This is NOT a bad thing! Don't get me wrong. I LIKED seeing these things from previous parts in the series. It's just slightly out of the ordinary- the plot in WoT tends to move forward, not look back on itself.
Like, Mat would never, EVER go up to Rand and say, "Hey, remember when I took that dagger from Shadar Logoth? And then Mordeth came out of the FREAKING WALL? That shit was crazy, son!"
Er. You see what I mean.
Yup, something that had to happen, and made perfect sense. I was just pointing out how many such things happened in tGS. For instance, the plot could have justified a Rand-Tam conversation any number of times in the last 9 or so books. It'd be a different justification than tGS used, but it still would have made sense.
Yup. Perfect sense. And it was a fluted rod that all us fans went "Hey! I remember that! Squeeee!"
Well, I did, anyway.
It did! It made perfect sense! And yet... notice how he hadn't said one. single. word. about it throughout the entire series?
Yup- although I don't think that she's ever spelled out so clearly to anyone how grateful to Mat she is, and how highly she thinks of him.
Again, true- it made perfect sense, and fit well in with the plot. It allows Egwene to stop worrying about infighting in the Tower, and lets the WT get back into the game with a united front.
But we've been wondering about Verin since tGH- why did she pick NOW to do this?
Mat and Thom talking about the events of EotW? Next time you reread the series, take a look at how often characters reference specific events from earlier in the series.
Example- Nynaeve and Elayne never, ever, EVER talk about how they were circus performers for a few months. It's not a big deal- there isn't a real reason to, and they have bigger things to talk about... but it's still noticable that they don't mention it.
It did play a big role in his life, I agree! Yet you can read everything from tFoH up until tGH and not even know there WAS a dagger.
I hope you see what I'm getting at by now. I'm not complaining that these things don't make sense. I'm actually not complaining at all, just commenting. But notice how this is yet another plotline from half a dozen books ago that is either being referenced or resolved in tGH.
I disagree. I mean after 12 large books, not to mention all the theories and discussions that have taken place, things are going to be revisited. A good story is going to reuse objects, and places, have the characters reflect on past experiences, and have foreshadowing that allows readers to speculate on what will happen next. I don't think anything was thrown in just for the fans.
Ah! But WoT usually DOESN'T reuse objects or places, and the characters almost never go "Wow, I remember when Rand was floating up in the sky. What... what was up with that?"
And let me say one last time that these aren't bad things. We already saw Foregate in tGH- I don't care at all that it burned down (well... I care a little. It was so cool!) Character development obviously happens- the characters themselves just don't think about it too much.
Honestly, I think the best example is Rand's battle against the Seancean blademaster at the end of tGH (and Falme in general). It was a huge, possibly life-defining, moment for Rand. He defeated a blademaster, but only by giving in to the Void. He had Hunters for the Horn call him Lews Therin to his face. He failed in rescuing Egwene. He battled Ishmael in the freaking sky!
All that, and a lot more. But... we never hear about it again, especially not from Rand's POV. Read the books again- Rand almost never, ever thinks about Falme, or the lessons and choices he learned and made there. He obviously grew as a character, but he doesn't explicitly think "Wow, Falme was crazy. Remember that?"
...Wow, this post went pretty far afield. I hope you understand what I'm saying. tGS was a bit more self-referential than other WoT books, but not in a bad, or a meta way. Just in a "We have 13 books of plot here, let's have some of it pay off, eh?" kind of way.
In the S5 finale, Buffy is fighting a Valley Girl God, and suddenly whacks her in the face with the troll's hammer. And they used the Buffybot as a decoy. And they tried to use the orb against the god.
So yes, these things in tGS made sense... but it also had an element of self reference that is rarely seen in WoT.
This is NOT a bad thing! Don't get me wrong. I LIKED seeing these things from previous parts in the series. It's just slightly out of the ordinary- the plot in WoT tends to move forward, not look back on itself.
Like, Mat would never, EVER go up to Rand and say, "Hey, remember when I took that dagger from Shadar Logoth? And then Mordeth came out of the FREAKING WALL? That shit was crazy, son!"
Er. You see what I mean.
A conversation between Tam and Rand.(!)
Something that had to happen. I don't think this was Sanderson, and I don't think RJ did this just to throw the fans a bone. This was something that needed to be done.
Something that had to happen. I don't think this was Sanderson, and I don't think RJ did this just to throw the fans a bone. This was something that needed to be done.
Yup, something that had to happen, and made perfect sense. I was just pointing out how many such things happened in tGS. For instance, the plot could have justified a Rand-Tam conversation any number of times in the last 9 or so books. It'd be a different justification than tGS used, but it still would have made sense.
The sa'angreal used to heal Mat.
Not sure how this is a fan service, it's logical that Egwene would grab the most powerful sa'angreal she was familiar with and had access to.
Not sure how this is a fan service, it's logical that Egwene would grab the most powerful sa'angreal she was familiar with and had access to.
Yup. Perfect sense. And it was a fluted rod that all us fans went "Hey! I remember that! Squeeee!"
Well, I did, anyway.
Rand talking about the blademaster he killed in tGH
Something that made sense. That was a huge event in his life, a real turning point.
Something that made sense. That was a huge event in his life, a real turning point.
It did! It made perfect sense! And yet... notice how he hadn't said one. single. word. about it throughout the entire series?
Nynaeve viciously defending Mat, and how he rescued her.
Actually makes sense and does fit with her character. She wants to protect the Two Rivers folk from outsiders. So even if she may personally agree with Tuon (which I don't think she does, I think she was genuinely grateful to Mat, but didn't want to let him know that), she's definitely not going to let a foreigner get away with bad mouthing one of her own. It's almost like a big brother that always picks on his younger siblings, but will fight anyone else who does.
Actually makes sense and does fit with her character. She wants to protect the Two Rivers folk from outsiders. So even if she may personally agree with Tuon (which I don't think she does, I think she was genuinely grateful to Mat, but didn't want to let him know that), she's definitely not going to let a foreigner get away with bad mouthing one of her own. It's almost like a big brother that always picks on his younger siblings, but will fight anyone else who does.
Yup- although I don't think that she's ever spelled out so clearly to anyone how grateful to Mat she is, and how highly she thinks of him.
Finally, an explanation of Verin's behavior (sidenote- perhaps Verin was directed to send that draghkar after Moiraine?)
Obviously this was necessary. But I don't think you'd argue that point.
Obviously this was necessary. But I don't think you'd argue that point.
Again, true- it made perfect sense, and fit well in with the plot. It allows Egwene to stop worrying about infighting in the Tower, and lets the WT get back into the game with a united front.
But we've been wondering about Verin since tGH- why did she pick NOW to do this?
Mat and Thom reminiscing about being on Domon's ship, and playing for their food.
Doubt this was a Sanderson scene, and if it was, I doubt it was simply to give a shout-out to the fans.
Doubt this was a Sanderson scene, and if it was, I doubt it was simply to give a shout-out to the fans.
Mat and Thom talking about the events of EotW? Next time you reread the series, take a look at how often characters reference specific events from earlier in the series.
Example- Nynaeve and Elayne never, ever, EVER talk about how they were circus performers for a few months. It's not a big deal- there isn't a real reason to, and they have bigger things to talk about... but it's still noticable that they don't mention it.
Mat thinking about the dagger, which I don't think he's mentioned for half a dozen books.
But it did play a large role in his life. It's hard to tell whether or not RJ would have done this if RJ had written this book.
But it did play a large role in his life. It's hard to tell whether or not RJ would have done this if RJ had written this book.
It did play a big role in his life, I agree! Yet you can read everything from tFoH up until tGH and not even know there WAS a dagger.
Even Gareth and Siuan bickering and reconciling over her oath counts- remember, that oath was made back in tFoH!
But it was a major obstacle affecting their relationship with one another. I doubt Gareth would ever let himself become romantically involved with someone he sees as an oath-breaker. Clearing this up furthers their storyline, while it makes perfect sense that two stubborn people took this long to talk it out.
But it was a major obstacle affecting their relationship with one another. I doubt Gareth would ever let himself become romantically involved with someone he sees as an oath-breaker. Clearing this up furthers their storyline, while it makes perfect sense that two stubborn people took this long to talk it out.
I hope you see what I'm getting at by now. I'm not complaining that these things don't make sense. I'm actually not complaining at all, just commenting. But notice how this is yet another plotline from half a dozen books ago that is either being referenced or resolved in tGH.
I disagree. I mean after 12 large books, not to mention all the theories and discussions that have taken place, things are going to be revisited. A good story is going to reuse objects, and places, have the characters reflect on past experiences, and have foreshadowing that allows readers to speculate on what will happen next. I don't think anything was thrown in just for the fans.
Ah! But WoT usually DOESN'T reuse objects or places, and the characters almost never go "Wow, I remember when Rand was floating up in the sky. What... what was up with that?"
And let me say one last time that these aren't bad things. We already saw Foregate in tGH- I don't care at all that it burned down (well... I care a little. It was so cool!) Character development obviously happens- the characters themselves just don't think about it too much.
Honestly, I think the best example is Rand's battle against the Seancean blademaster at the end of tGH (and Falme in general). It was a huge, possibly life-defining, moment for Rand. He defeated a blademaster, but only by giving in to the Void. He had Hunters for the Horn call him Lews Therin to his face. He failed in rescuing Egwene. He battled Ishmael in the freaking sky!
All that, and a lot more. But... we never hear about it again, especially not from Rand's POV. Read the books again- Rand almost never, ever thinks about Falme, or the lessons and choices he learned and made there. He obviously grew as a character, but he doesn't explicitly think "Wow, Falme was crazy. Remember that?"
...Wow, this post went pretty far afield. I hope you understand what I'm saying. tGS was a bit more self-referential than other WoT books, but not in a bad, or a meta way. Just in a "We have 13 books of plot here, let's have some of it pay off, eh?" kind of way.
I amuse myself.
thoughts and things I found funny
- 09/11/2009 01:29:03 AM
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Re: thoughts and things I found funny
- 09/11/2009 03:36:35 AM
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There were definitely a lot of fan-servicey callbacks
- 09/11/2009 03:42:41 PM
507 Views
I agree there were fan-ish things
- 09/11/2009 04:11:37 PM
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Bela obviously has a role to play in T'armon Gaidon! 
- 09/11/2009 04:22:24 PM
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- 09/11/2009 04:22:24 PM
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Actually it wouldn't surprise me if she was at the Last Battle
- 09/11/2009 06:43:35 PM
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- 09/11/2009 06:43:35 PM
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of course she will be (not sure what the joke is here) 
- also, she's Harriet's favorite character *NM*
- 09/11/2009 10:27:01 PM
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- also, she's Harriet's favorite character *NM*
- 09/11/2009 10:27:01 PM
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I think most of those are perfectly acceptable.
- 09/11/2009 10:46:36 PM
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Hm. Let me explain. I meant it more like... when you watch the season finale of a show.
- 10/11/2009 07:26:00 AM
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