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both of thoes example still fit into this theory Apsalar Shadowdancer Send a noteboard - 16/12/2009 08:49:35 AM

which somewhat contradicts your section # 4

From tFoH, chapter 54:

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it. (emphasis mine)

I'm not saying this necessarily disputes your claim, it's just the original quote we have from the books concerning the making of gateways. The only thing that really doesn't seem to make sense is that Aviendha has to use so much of her strength to open a gateway, while Rand's pov states that the amount of Power you draw doesn't matter.

One theory explaining her difficulty is that she is having to relearn a weave she used before she knew what she was doing. (I find that hard to believe since she only used it that one time, and she did it without thinking out of pure panic.)

Others think that she gets embarrassed thinking about what happened the first time she Travelled, and that is the source of her problem. (That may have held true the first few times she used it again, but I'd think she would outgrow that fairly quickly.)

And still others put forth the theory that she time-travels when she makes her gateways. (One of my older ones, btw)

Other than her, I think most of the quotes in the books would support your idea. Even when the women link to form a gateway, they are probably just increasing the potential Power, and not using the full strength of the link to make it.

In tGS Rand again emphasizes that there is a limit to the size of a gateway that one person can make. That supports Asmodean's statement about limits. It is almost as if it took Rand a year or two of testing for himself and now he believes Asmodean to have told the truth.

However, Rand's statement is shown to be false in some situations (e.g. when Angreal or Sa'angreal are involved). For example, Siuan picks up Vora's Sa'angreal in tGS and can all of a sudden make a huge gateway to get Gareth and Egwene out of the tower. So, when it is quoted as "the amount of saidin you drew didn't matter" is obviously not entirely true. The amount of power you draw does matter, as evidenced by Siuan.

Also, Egwene is another example that the amount of power you draw matters. Egwene is maybe the most skilled/adept weaver of all the women. I point that out to show that if anyone should be able to travel easily, without using much power, it ought to be Egwene. Nonetheless, to travel to go get Vora's sa'angreal when Egwene is drugged up by Forkroot tea, she has to get the added strengths of Nicola and others. In other words, potential alone is not enough to let you open a big gateway. You need the actual strength to do so.

with forkroot in her system it could be that egwene's "potential" is under the minimum strength to open a gateway, therefore she needs the "potential" from the circle to break that threshold and be able to weave a gateway.

In the same way Siuan's "potential" strenght dramatically increases with the addition of an angreal, allowing her to form a much bigger gateway. I don't recall it saying spicifically that she used more power on makeing the gateway, just that she could make a larger one with a sa'angreal than she can with out one.

with the recent debates on how angreal and sa'angreal differ it would be interesting to see if we have any examples of a angreal increasing the size of a gateway. i believe the theory goes something like angreal increase the amount of power you can channel, but sa'angreal give you access to a very large but set amount of power

for example:

no angreal (numbers are pure conjecture and only used to show a consept)

egwene powe rating: 60

nynaeve power rating: 85

angreal x (increase power rating by 2 times amount)

egwene power rating: 60(2)= 120

nynaeve power rating: 85(2)= 170

sa'angreal x (increases power by adding 300 to total)

egwene power rating: 60+300=360

nynaeve power rating: 85+300=385

like i said the number really mean nothing, but based on what sanderson has said in recent interviews i believe that is how angreal and sa'angreal work. It would be interesting to me to see if they also differ in allowing a larger gateway to be made, which would further show the difference between the two types of *angreal

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Gateway size and One Power strength - a theoretical model... Shannow - 15/12/2009 08:42:26 AM 792 Views

There's this.... Light in the Night - 15/12/2009 09:58:26 AM 441 Views

Yes Shannow - 15/12/2009 10:21:54 AM 344 Views

Rand's later quotes confirm, but also refute this. Also, Egwene throws a wrench in things..... Logain - 15/12/2009 04:02:33 PM 443 Views

both of thoes example still fit into this theory Apsalar Shadowdancer - 16/12/2009 08:49:35 AM 354 Views

who's gateway size have we seen increase? Onarishma - 15/12/2009 12:06:58 PM 405 Views

Neald... Shannow - 15/12/2009 12:18:24 PM 390 Views

Nice points, I wonder... Etzel - 15/12/2009 12:16:22 PM 353 Views

Angreal or sa'angreal do not increase your gateway size... Shannow - 15/12/2009 12:21:10 PM 361 Views

I can't remember Asmo's comment. Etzel - 15/12/2009 12:23:46 PM 448 Views

Light in the Night quotes it above... Shannow - 15/12/2009 12:27:42 PM 296 Views

Unfortunately Etzel - 15/12/2009 12:37:21 PM 327 Views

I'm pretty sure that Rand makes the maximum possible gateway for one person... Shannow - 15/12/2009 12:41:48 PM 315 Views

Yes, just wanted to mention this point. *NM* Etzel - 15/12/2009 01:03:46 PM 394 Views

Re: I'm pretty sure that Rand makes the maximum possible gateway for one person... Sidious - 15/12/2009 01:44:46 PM 409 Views

Well they might Sidious - 15/12/2009 01:42:24 PM 338 Views

How big was Cadsuane's gateway? Shannow - 15/12/2009 01:43:20 PM 430 Views

Re: How big was Cadsuane's gateway? Sidious - 15/12/2009 02:00:58 PM 335 Views

So 8 or 9 feet, I'd say...Edited to add another possibility. Shannow - 15/12/2009 02:05:48 PM 308 Views

Re: So 8 or 9 feet, I'd say... Sidious - 15/12/2009 02:09:06 PM 370 Views

I came up with another possibility after first replying to this issue... Shannow - 15/12/2009 02:11:41 PM 347 Views

Re: I came up with another possibility after first replying to this issue... Sidious - 15/12/2009 02:16:23 PM 327 Views

and in the TGS Siuan uses Vora's sa'angreal darius_sedai - 15/12/2009 04:56:34 PM 350 Views

I agree w/ you. Siuan and Vora's sa'angreal refutes one of the points in the original post *NM* Logain - 15/12/2009 05:08:23 PM 172 Views

Another theory Ryan - 15/12/2009 05:26:45 PM 338 Views

Excellent points darius_sedai - 15/12/2009 06:08:09 PM 321 Views

Ah, but what if it is on a genetic level? Ryan - 16/12/2009 05:08:29 AM 299 Views

Re: Ah, but what if it is on a genetic level? darius_sedai - 16/12/2009 05:20:14 AM 325 Views

What about Siuan and Vora's sa'angreal? Logain - 15/12/2009 04:06:55 PM 358 Views

Yes, pretty much Sidious - 15/12/2009 01:41:34 PM 327 Views

The interesting part is... Shannow - 15/12/2009 01:44:46 PM 337 Views

It seems to be a mental thing Sidious - 15/12/2009 02:06:25 PM 324 Views

Also, the part that has me stumped at this point... Shannow - 15/12/2009 01:49:24 PM 366 Views

Re: Also, the part that has me stumped at this point... Sidious - 15/12/2009 02:04:04 PM 425 Views

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<quote id="61764">
<quote id="61305"><quote id="61226">which somewhat contradicts your section # 4

From tFoH, chapter 54:

<i>Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. <b>The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making.</b> Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.</i> (emphasis mine)

I'm not saying this necessarily disputes your claim, it's just the original quote we have from the books concerning the making of gateways. The only thing that really doesn't seem to make sense is that Aviendha has to use so much of her strength to open a gateway, while Rand's pov states that the amount of Power you draw doesn't matter.

One theory explaining her difficulty is that she is having to relearn a weave she used before she knew what she was doing. (I find that hard to believe since she only used it that one time, and she did it without thinking out of pure panic.)

Others think that she gets embarrassed thinking about what happened the first time she Travelled, and that is the source of her problem. (That may have held true the first few times she used it again, but I'd think she would outgrow that fairly quickly.)

And still others put forth the theory that she time-travels when she makes her gateways. (One of my older ones, btw)

Other than her, I think most of the quotes in the books would support your idea. Even when the women link to form a gateway, they are probably just increasing the potential Power, and not using the full strength of the link to make it.  </quote>

However, Rand's statement is shown to be false in some situations (e.g. when Angreal or Sa'angreal are involved).  For example, Siuan picks up Vora's Sa'angreal in tGS and can all of a sudden make a huge gateway to get Gareth and Egwene out of the tower.  So, when it is quoted as "the amount of saidin you drew didn't matter" is obviously not entirely true.  The amount of power you draw does matter, as evidenced by Siuan.

Also, Egwene is another example that the amount of power you draw matters.  Egwene is maybe the most skilled/adept weaver of all the women.  I point that out to show that if anyone should be able to travel easily, without using much power, it ought to be Egwene.  Nonetheless, to travel to go get Vora's sa'angreal when Egwene is drugged up by Forkroot tea, she has to get the added strengths of Nicola and others.  In other words, potential alone is not enough to let you open a big gateway.  You need the actual strength to do so.</quote>

In the same way Siuan's "potential" strenght dramatically increases with the addition of an angreal, allowing her to form a much bigger gateway. I don't recall it saying spicifically that she used more power on makeing the gateway, just that she could make a larger one with a sa'angreal than she can with out one.

with the recent debates on how angreal and sa'angreal differ it would be interesting to see if we have any examples of a angreal increasing the size of a gateway. i believe the theory goes something like angreal increase the amount of power you can channel, but sa'angreal give you access to a very large but set amount of power

for example:

no angreal (numbers are pure conjecture and only used to show a consept)

egwene powe rating: 60

nynaeve power rating: 85

angreal x (increase power rating by 2 times amount)

egwene power rating: 60(2)= 120

nynaeve power rating: 85(2)= 170

sa'angreal x (increases power by adding 300 to total)

egwene power rating: 60+300=360

nynaeve power rating: 85+300=385

like i said the number really mean nothing, but based on what sanderson has said in recent interviews i believe that is how angreal and sa'angreal work. It would be interesting to me to see if they also differ in allowing a larger gateway to be made, which would further show the difference between the two types of *angreal
</quote>

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