Re: I support your view, with maybe a few comments to add...
Sidious Send a noteboard - 03/01/2010 04:37:56 PM
I'm tired of the Bell Curve, as I think the most likely answer is that RJ didn't actually know what a Bell Curve is in the true sense of the word.
Because a true Bell Curve simply does not fit the evidence so well presented by you in the above post.
Because a true Bell Curve simply does not fit the evidence so well presented by you in the above post.
The bell curve fits. It's a graph of channeler prevalence, not absolute strength. We should have mentioned that at the beginning of the debate, but I didn't know it until someone told me.
In any case, I used to think that the 13 sister rule provided a minimum level for a woman like Dagian, but since the increased precision of circles was presented to us in scenes like the Cleansing I no longer hold that view. Therefore, I agree that someone like Dagian might well be less than one thirteenth as powerful as Rand, or at the very least, less than one thirteenth of the power required to overwhelm him in physical terms (remembering that you have to be MUCH stronger than someone to shield them if they are already holding the Power).
I think one should be careful here. Daigian is the weakest Aes Sedai, but quite strong compared to almost one third of women. It's important to remember that only a fraction of women become Aes Sedai - and it's based largely on strength. Other Accepted and novices are sent away, or fail the tests. Daigian is a capable channeler - she managed to pass the test for the shawl anyway, and that requires combat.
Almost all of Egwene's novices are considerably weaker than Daigian, and yet Asmodean claims that thirteen of them would overwhelm most men. Therefore, even if they had a strength of 1 each, and a combined strength of 13, it seems like the circle advantage is massive and can shield men of relatively high strength, much like the gateway with thirteen women is so large.
As for Egwene, I also place her at about 50. At most.
The quote about Egwene not standing a chance against Moghedien's strength, and the quote about Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda being doubtful of overpowering a single male Forsaken pretty much seals it for me.
The quote about Egwene not standing a chance against Moghedien's strength, and the quote about Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda being doubtful of overpowering a single male Forsaken pretty much seals it for me.
I wouldn't go higher than 50 with Egwene either.
We have to remember that three Black Ajah sisters can overwhelm Moghedien, according to Liandrin (if I recall the name correctly).
Therefore, if 3 can do so to Moghedien, then it seems likely that two can do so to Egwene at her full potential.
Therefore, if 3 can do so to Moghedien, then it seems likely that two can do so to Egwene at her full potential.
Well we know that two can hold Egwene, and Liandrin is sure that three can overwhelm Moghedien. Moghedien is somewhere between Nynaeve and Egwene.
My only disagreement with your list is that I would place Nynaeve lower, at about 80. To me there is simply too much emphasis on Lanfear's great strength advantage over the other Forsaken for Nynaeve to be so close to her. I also don't think Alivia's "considerable strength advantage" over Nynaeve can be represented by a mere 10% on the strength scale.
I've only moved Nynaeve up, not the rest of the Forsaken. BS pretty much said that she's a woman of incredible strength. She's stronger than most of the female Forsaken. Lanfear might be her only competition, though I think Graendal is too. Was.
Furthermore, I don't believe Alivia equals Lanfear - the most powerful woman of the Age of Legends by a margin big enough to leave her no doubt that she is exceeded by no woman.
I have doubts. RJ doesn't have much respect for high strength levels - he sometimes just shoves teenagers like Talaan in, and he's made men like Logain/Taim as strong as AOL legends like Demandred and Sammael. It wouldn't surprise me if there is only one level above Nynaeve and it's occupied by Lanfear, Sharina and Alivia.
In any case, the top individuals leave a lot of room for debate. But what seems incontrovertible to me is the placing of lesser characters like Egwene, Moiraine and the average Aes Sedai.
I don't really know how this notion of Egwene being 60-70% as strong as Lanfear crept up on us. It is not supported by the weight of evidence and should not be seriously considered, in my view.
I don't really know how this notion of Egwene being 60-70% as strong as Lanfear crept up on us. It is not supported by the weight of evidence and should not be seriously considered, in my view.
It came up because of mathematical incompetence on both sides. The bell curve merely speaks about channeler prevalence. It does not display absolute strengths. Furthermore, outliers are possible especially when discussing the strongest people in the whole AOL who survived.
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Fan of Lanfear
Fan of Lanfear
One Power strength - critical analysis of previous posts and some further ideas
- 03/01/2010 07:59:24 AM
2750 Views
I support your view, with maybe a few comments to add...
- 03/01/2010 02:58:05 PM
1390 Views
Re: I support your view, with maybe a few comments to add...
- 03/01/2010 04:37:56 PM
1231 Views
where is this phantom quote of Egwene "not standing a chance"
- 03/01/2010 05:20:20 PM
1096 Views
Here's the real quote
- 03/01/2010 05:38:59 PM
1124 Views
Well that quote perfectly illustrates the skewed way in which you interpret the evidence...
- 03/01/2010 06:18:22 PM
1162 Views
I also think the quote is specific
- 03/01/2010 06:34:38 PM
1131 Views
Skill not Strength is the key that and the potential that another FS was with her
- 03/01/2010 06:51:46 PM
1117 Views
Bah
- 03/01/2010 07:13:01 PM
1072 Views
Who's arguing that?
- 03/01/2010 07:34:21 PM
1046 Views
What ARE you arguing?
- 03/01/2010 07:43:06 PM
1094 Views
That there is far more to strength in her quote!
- 03/01/2010 08:05:20 PM
990 Views
Re: That there is far more to strength in her quote!
- 04/01/2010 09:40:05 AM
1190 Views
and where do I ever say Elayne is only a small step below Moghedien?
- 04/01/2010 03:08:37 PM
1109 Views
You more than imply it with your own list
- 04/01/2010 03:39:06 PM
1129 Views
and you are fixated on simple strength to the exclusion of everything else
- 04/01/2010 05:05:54 PM
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Re: and you are fixated on simple strength to the exclusion of everything else
- 04/01/2010 06:46:45 PM
1520 Views
Tiny Unimportant Objection to "Bell Curve" Point
- 03/01/2010 03:09:55 PM
1246 Views
Re: Tiny Unimportant Objection to "Bell Curve" Point
- 03/01/2010 04:39:25 PM
1159 Views
I've got a slightly revised opinion than my last post
- 03/01/2010 05:16:39 PM
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Re: I've got a slightly revised opinion than my last post
- 03/01/2010 06:31:09 PM
1259 Views
It's actually not that complicated ... simple math actually
- 03/01/2010 07:08:52 PM
1108 Views
Yes, but to think that RJ put that much effort into it is improbable
- 03/01/2010 07:19:13 PM
1146 Views
I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
- 03/01/2010 07:56:17 PM
1056 Views
Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
- 04/01/2010 09:50:38 AM
1173 Views
Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
- 04/01/2010 03:26:10 PM
1221 Views
Re: I'm being harsh with one poster who continues to mis-quote things!
- 04/01/2010 03:52:19 PM
1095 Views
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth
- 04/01/2010 05:09:15 PM
1042 Views
Dude
- 04/01/2010 06:21:28 PM
995 Views
Dude, please go back to Fionwe's post
- 04/01/2010 06:35:03 PM
1074 Views
A reply...
- 03/01/2010 06:02:33 PM
1052 Views
The Tower sample is skewed allright, but to the upper side of the strength range...
- 03/01/2010 06:36:45 PM
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Re: A reply...
- 03/01/2010 07:09:55 PM
1179 Views
I think distance is related to Strength
- 03/01/2010 07:21:46 PM
1078 Views
Re: A reply...
- 03/01/2010 08:38:07 PM
1258 Views
amusing side note
- 04/01/2010 05:22:39 AM
1043 Views
Which is exactly what I envisage the AOL distribution to have looked like...
- 04/01/2010 07:03:51 AM
965 Views
Re: Which is exactly what I envisage the AOL distribution to have looked like...
- 04/01/2010 03:29:47 PM
1055 Views
It may sound silly, but did you look at One Power values in the Wheel of Time CCG?
- 05/01/2010 12:56:41 AM
1571 Views
Re: It may sound silly, but did you look at One Power values in the Wheel of Time CCG?
- 05/01/2010 07:33:21 AM
1152 Views


