Wheel of Time Messageboard: Re: I lean towards somethng like this as a result of the end of tGS. by orius

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Re: I lean towards somethng like this as a result of the end of tGS. orius Send a noteboard - 18/02/2010 07:18:44 AM

He initially tried to cow them, which didn't work, then to destroy them, but he had a crisis of conscience. I think that representative of his presumably improved outlook, he will bow to the throne or Tuon in some manner. This is made more likely by the events on the Seanchan side of things. Tuon held off on becoming Empress and taking a new name because their customs and laws could not allow anyone to be the equal of the Empress, and she wanted to give herself some breathing room in dealing with Rand, rather than trying to force his submission or antagonizing him by adhering to their protocol which he had not been raised to accept. Now, however, she has taken the final step and CANNOT deal with him as an equal. If Rand is to deal further with the Empire, he MUST bow to Tuon, barring, as always, some radical change in the paradigm.

I think this is the case. Previously, I had thought that the whole part of the DR bowing to the Crystal Throne was a warped prophesy, probably due to the influence of Ishamael.

But then there were the events of tGS. Rand tried, and failed spectacularly to force a truce out of Tuon, and in the process lowered his eyes in the Seanchan view. Then at the end of the book, he goes off to Ebou Dar to wipe her out, but sees the evidence that she's governing more or less fairly and justly (except for the damane). Everything is peaceful and orderly in Ebou Dar unlike Bandar Eban which is roiled in chaos.

I hadn't thought of the protocol angle, but it makes sense. Rand's learning that he can't just bully everyone, that he has to show respect for rules and their customs. There was a bit of that in the Stone of Tear in KoD.

So I think he will kneel as a show of respect and apology, but not submission. Some of the Prophesies have been fulfilled in ways that people didn't expect already.

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Will Rand bow to the Crystal Throne? Yondaime - 16/02/2010 07:03:12 PM 2294 Views

Re: Will Rand bow to the Crystal Throne? Gnosis18 - 16/02/2010 07:07:51 PM 1384 Views

Like I said below.... GateKeeper - 16/02/2010 07:33:59 PM 1143 Views

I lean towards somethng like this as a result of the end of tGS. Cannoli - 16/02/2010 08:24:20 PM 1308 Views

Yeah, Rand doesn't have many options left Yondaime - 16/02/2010 09:13:26 PM 1043 Views

Ignore this ... double post.... Yondaime - 16/02/2010 09:13:35 PM 994 Views

So you think him submitting to the Seanchan is a good thing? lilltempest - 17/02/2010 07:25:13 PM 1302 Views

It's WoT. You win by surrendering. Metaphysical judo, if you will. Cannoli - 17/02/2010 11:03:22 PM 1142 Views

Re: It's WoT. You win by surrendering. Metaphysical judo, if you will. Datakim - 17/02/2010 11:41:11 PM 1049 Views

Re: It's WoT. You win by surrendering. Metaphysical judo, if you will. Lord Haart - 18/02/2010 03:23:39 AM 1018 Views

Re: It's WoT. You win by surrendering. Metaphysical judo, if you will. Datakim - 18/02/2010 03:38:04 AM 1108 Views

Perhaps if they reform, other rulers will accept them. Lord Haart - 18/02/2010 05:59:16 AM 1078 Views

Re: It's WoT. You win by surrendering. Metaphysical judo, if you will. Cannoli - 19/02/2010 03:18:35 PM 1172 Views

Re: I lean towards somethng like this as a result of the end of tGS. orius - 18/02/2010 07:18:44 AM 1047 Views

Re: I lean towards somethng like this as a result of the end of tGS. Datakim - 18/02/2010 01:22:49 PM 1047 Views

Why everyone's loving Seanchan?

Skeeve the Great - 18/02/2010 02:41:07 PM 1039 Views

As I said - all of Randland's political systems have strengths and weaknesses. Lord Haart - 18/02/2010 05:46:40 PM 923 Views

Re: Why everyone's loving Seanchan?

orius - 19/02/2010 07:48:07 AM 1080 Views

I've been saying since wotmania that they are no worse than anyone else. Cannoli - 19/02/2010 03:23:22 PM 1062 Views

Re: I've been saying since wotmania that they are no worse than anyone else. Skeeve the Great - 19/02/2010 06:13:08 PM 987 Views

Re: I've been saying since wotmania that they are no worse than anyone else. Cannoli - 19/02/2010 07:37:25 PM 1100 Views

the entire system of Seekers isn't an abuse of power? Bethamin winds up fleeing due to her fear of darius_sedai - 20/02/2010 12:13:52 AM 1099 Views

Agree Skeeve the Great - 20/02/2010 01:04:26 AM 1124 Views

Re: Agree Cannoli - 20/02/2010 03:46:03 PM 1008 Views

No, they're the only group that seems to pay more than lip service to the concept of responsibility Cannoli - 20/02/2010 03:37:58 PM 1008 Views

You asked for an example of abuse of power. The Seekers are a clear abuse no better than any darius_sedai - 20/02/2010 04:42:06 PM 1373 Views

Thanks for the perspective of outsiders and the behavior of a Darkfriend. THAT's good info! Cannoli - 24/02/2010 01:26:39 PM 1282 Views

Re: Why everyone's loving Seanchan?

Sidious - 19/02/2010 04:27:13 PM 952 Views

Re: Why everyone's loving Seanchan?

Skeeve the Great - 19/02/2010 05:41:08 PM 969 Views

Re: Why everyone's loving Seanchan?

Datakim - 19/02/2010 05:41:53 PM 1177 Views

Re: Will Rand bow to the Crystal Throne? RugbyPlayingAshaman - 16/02/2010 09:51:36 PM 1160 Views

I think it's a false prophecy randfandom - 17/02/2010 12:39:23 AM 1174 Views

"Bow, or be bowed." *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/02/2010 03:39:04 PM 622 Views

Submit to Fortuona Lohikaarme - 02/03/2010 10:02:31 AM 981 Views

Just A Possibility artois - 02/03/2010 09:52:20 PM 982 Views

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<quote id="81971">
<quote id="81575">He initially tried to cow them, which didn't work, then to destroy them, but he had a crisis of conscience.  I think that representative of his presumably improved outlook, he will bow to the throne or Tuon in some manner.  This is made more likely by the events on the Seanchan side of things.  Tuon held off on becoming Empress and taking a new name because their customs and laws could not allow anyone to be the equal of the Empress, and she wanted to give herself some breathing room in dealing with Rand, rather than trying to force his submission or antagonizing him by adhering to their protocol which he had not been raised to accept.  Now, however, she has taken the final step and CANNOT deal with him as an equal.  If Rand is to deal further with the Empire, he MUST bow to Tuon, barring, as always, some radical change in the paradigm. </quote>

I think this is the case.  Previously, I had thought that the whole part of the DR bowing to the Crystal Throne was a warped prophesy, probably due to the influence of Ishamael.

But then there were the events of tGS.  Rand tried, and failed spectacularly to force a truce out of Tuon, and in the process lowered his eyes in the Seanchan view.  Then at the end of the book, he goes off to Ebou Dar to wipe her out, but sees the evidence that she's governing more or less fairly and justly (except for the <i>damane</i>). Everything is peaceful and orderly in Ebou Dar unlike Bandar Eban which is roiled in chaos.

I hadn't thought of the protocol angle, but it makes sense.  Rand's learning that he can't just bully everyone, that he has to show respect for rules and their customs.  There was a bit of that in the Stone of Tear in KoD.

So I think he will kneel as a show of respect and apology, but not submission.  Some of the Prophesies have been fulfilled in ways that people didn't expect already.
</quote>

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