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While you're probably right... Gher Send a noteboard - 04/03/2010 05:04:27 PM
Just from the scene - Ishamael creates three women from nothing in Tel'aran'rhiod, and two of them are confirmed to have been made of dreamstuff, why assume that the other was not? Also, the Myrddraal molesting her were also made of dreamstuff. It was just Ishamael trying to daunt Rand.


One could argue that the Myddraal were real: either they were Myddraal souls that the DO/Ishy used, or real physical Myddraal were able to shadow-teleport. And because Myddraal are mentioned as "slightly out of phase with time and reality" they can affect Kari's soul.

Of course, that argument is fairly stupid weak.

But, how do I know this?

Well, we've got the facts on Shai'tan's ability to capture souls from the Forsaken reincarnation discussions. Shai'tan has a limited window of time to capture the freshly deceased before they return to the soul pool, that is how balefire functions in regards to eliminating the Forsaken for good.

That means that in order for the Kari that Ishamael creates to be the real one, Shai'tan would need to have retrieved her soul when she died, many years ago. Why would he do this? The souls of Darkfriends return to the soul pool as well, we know this, among other quotes, because even Trolloc souls get returned, and they are far more tainted than any human Darkfriend's. So for Kari to be real, Shai'tan would need to deliberately capture her soul.


This is a good point, but the real question is, did Robert Jordan have all this transmigration business and limitations worked out when he wrote TEOTW? There are numerous examples of One Power mechanics that are slightly different in the first few books, before RJ had rules established. Perhaps he originally let the DO have power over all souls that swear to him (or even some power over those who don't) and then later realized he had to have a way to kill Forsaken permanently (for this Age, not all turnings) and invented the transmigration limitations.

Why would he do this? He has no reason. Shai'tan certainly did not know she was the Dragon Reborn's mother, the role of trackers like Padan Fain was to establish where in the world the Dragon Reborn was located, and that wasn't discovered until this very year. And up to the moment where Rand seized the Eye of the World and fought off Aginor and the Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap, Ishamael still didn't know who of Rand, Perrin and Mat was the Dragon Reborn. Surely, if Shai'tan had taken Kari's soul years ago because she was the Dragon Reborn's mother, Ishamael would know that her one and only adopted son was the Dragon Reborn, which he clearly does not.


And how does Shai'tan (or Ishy) know what Kari al'Thor looks like? He isn't shown to be able to read minds, even in TAR, so he couldn't get Kari's image from Rand.

And yes, I do realize that my first argument could very well be used to explain this point. At the time RJ wrote TEOTW, he hadn't established the rules of Tel'aran'rhiod, so Ishy was able to get a glimpse at Rand's memory of his Mother, or he created a 'template', a generic figure that Rand's mind filled in, etc.

There are other weird things, like Kari thanking Rand for hitting her with Light. If Ishy was trying to get Rand to despair, why not have her cry out, "It's no use, nothing can break the chains that bind me to my master" when he hit her with the bar of light? Why give Rand that victory? Why let Rand think he can thwart the DO in anything?

Maybe RJ meant to leave the question open, and debatable. He apparently intended to let readers form their own opinions on whether Rand is insane or not. Maybe he meant to leave all the mysteries open. Maybe that's the answer to who killed Asmodean. It was any of the suspects mentioned, not just one in particular.
"And it breaks my heart to look around, and see the unimpressed; who can't believe the emperor is dressed"~Fastball
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Kari al' Thor - 03/03/2010 10:09:10 PM 1154 Views
I always figured..... - 03/03/2010 10:24:41 PM 768 Views
Re: I always figured..... - 04/03/2010 01:33:34 AM 638 Views
Re: Kari al' Thor - 03/03/2010 11:36:48 PM 1048 Views
Re: Kari al' Thor - 04/03/2010 03:51:00 AM 586 Views
Well... - 03/03/2010 11:44:12 PM 608 Views
It's a Tel'aran'rhiod construct. - 04/03/2010 01:30:16 AM 711 Views
Re: It's a Tel'aran'rhiod construct. - 04/03/2010 01:38:44 AM 611 Views
Re: It's a Tel'aran'rhiod construct. - 04/03/2010 02:16:12 PM 524 Views
Nice... but - 04/03/2010 03:54:02 PM 527 Views
Well, I thought that Rand wrenched control of the illusion from Ishamael... - 04/03/2010 07:09:06 PM 507 Views
Re: It's a Tel'aran'rhiod construct. - 04/03/2010 04:48:53 PM 593 Views
Agreed. Excellent reasoning. *NM* - 04/03/2010 06:07:24 PM 235 Views
Hadn't even considered that. Yes, I think you are correct. - 04/03/2010 07:09:14 PM 635 Views
While you're probably right... - 04/03/2010 05:04:27 PM 551 Views
Re: While you're probably right... - 04/03/2010 05:58:52 PM 557 Views
Not everything got tweaked... - 04/03/2010 07:57:47 PM 490 Views
Re: Not everything got tweaked... - 05/03/2010 10:36:54 PM 568 Views
For the record I agree with your theory. - 07/03/2010 06:26:45 AM 496 Views
Re: Kari al' Thor - 04/03/2010 03:44:09 PM 578 Views
Re: Kari al' Thor - 04/03/2010 07:01:43 PM 512 Views
- 05/03/2010 09:02:07 AM 483 Views
Re: - 06/03/2010 12:07:09 AM 590 Views

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