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Re: There has to be something more, though. dacole Send a noteboard - 26/12/2011 03:14:04 AM
I think the complaints about the misogyny in Martin's books are somewhat shakier, however. First off, he has a significant number of major female characters with agency, several of whom do not use their sexuality to get what they want (Arya, most notably) whilst others do (Cersei, Daenerys) and others reject that notion (Brienne). Secondly, ASoIaF is much more closely based on - or at least inspired by - real historical events (the Red Wedding is a re-enactment of the Black Dinner, when King James II of Scotland personally killed Earl Douglas at a dinner held under a flag of safe conduct, and Douglas was stabbed through the throat and thrown out of a window like Robb, though his head was not removed that we know of) and the level of 'misogyny' reflects that. On a related note, Mary Gentle, in her research for ASH: A SECRET HISTORY, discovered evidence that child prostitution amongst camp followers during medieval warfare was commonplace, and depicts her heroine starting life in such a role, something that goes way beyond anything seen in Martin (or Bakker, for that matter).

In fact, ASoIaF rather lowballs the levels of violence and rape that take place during major conflicts. The accounts of the devastation of Silesia and much of Eastern Germany during the Red Army's march on Berlin in 1945 are truly disturbing, and the notion that medieval warfare did not feature such things when there was far less reporting going on seems unrealistic.


All of which raises the point for me that, if I want to read about atrocities, the real world has far too many examples for me to want to have them featured and indeed highlighted in my recreational reading. That many of the events in ASoIaF have at least some historical background is no excuse for making a spectacle of the worst parts in the name of "authenticity".


Art should represent the real world so that we don't forget what humans are capable of and so that we can help to change the real world. Even "recreational reading" should to some extent serve a higher purpose.
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Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 17/12/2011 01:36:54 PM 1672 Views
Hm, ok. - 17/12/2011 10:51:21 PM 1085 Views
I think we largely agree - 17/12/2011 11:23:00 PM 976 Views
Re: Hm, ok. - 26/12/2011 01:08:14 AM 973 Views
Martin, Goodkind... - 18/12/2011 01:58:33 PM 982 Views
More than just those - 18/12/2011 08:15:27 PM 908 Views
Re: More than just those - 26/12/2011 01:13:21 AM 843 Views
Re: Martin, Goodkind... - 26/12/2011 01:11:12 AM 865 Views
On more of a "meta" level, what makes a fantasy story "gritty" in the first place? - 19/12/2011 02:58:57 PM 859 Views
There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 03:47:56 PM 1017 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 05:29:30 PM 888 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 09:06:14 PM 871 Views
I agree about Martin - haven't read enough Bakker to judge. - 19/12/2011 09:56:17 PM 922 Views
My problem with aSoIaF... - 20/12/2011 05:16:42 AM 912 Views
The Rhoynish influence pretty much ends in Dorne. - 20/12/2011 06:15:54 AM 894 Views
And that makes sense? - 20/12/2011 08:54:16 AM 981 Views
Yes and no. - 20/12/2011 03:10:54 PM 1018 Views
Re: Yes and no. - 26/12/2011 03:12:01 AM 874 Views
Re: And that makes sense? - 18/05/2012 01:42:52 AM 946 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 20/12/2011 12:21:39 PM 828 Views
That's a question for each reader to answer then. - 20/12/2011 03:20:39 PM 730 Views
You appear to have not understood my point. - 20/12/2011 05:59:07 PM 778 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:14:04 AM 798 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:01:34 AM 817 Views
That's my general take as well - 20/12/2011 07:15:51 AM 804 Views
I like violence *NM* - 20/12/2011 07:51:39 PM 349 Views
Re: Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 25/12/2011 11:52:41 PM 1007 Views

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