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The power and influence of women in the Middle Ages was limited, but not non-existent. Werthead Send a noteboard - 26/12/2011 01:37:40 PM
I would have to disagree with the way you are characterizing the middle ages and the fact you expect him to be a scholar of medieval women's studies. The fact that women held no political power, had no education, no health care and no ability to keep from reproducing WAS the reasons for their inequality. As we have seen the thfings that gave them equality in the modern world are in fact the addition of these things.

A medieval culture without women having access to these things WOULD be naturally misogynistic and I have seen no good evidence to believe otherwise.

But again this is a fantasy story and we are really taking to much to seriously here.


There were female rulers with notable power and influence (Eleanor of Aquitaine, the Empress Maude and, if you extend to the post-medieval period, Elizabeth II and Isabella of Spain, or back to the Roman period, Boudica) and some female soldiers (Joan of Arc being the obvious example, but there are suggestions that women fought in battles even as mercenaries before that point). It varied by country and by case, but often women were also left in administrative roles over castles and towns whilst their husbands/fathers/brothers were off at war. Women's education, for the most part, was generally not noticeably worse than that for men. And of course no-one had any health care, though there were contraceptive methods (of dubious reliability) around as well.

I think the point also is that GRRM has researched the real medieval period extensively to write ASoIaF and the role of women is part of that, as much as food or warfare or religion or politics. The point isn't even that GRRM has downplayed the role of women compared to real history (I don't think he has at all, and in fact between Brienne, Daenerys, Cersei, Margaery, Arianne, Asha and Catelyn around at once he has a lot more notable and powerful women around at once than at almost any single time in the real medieval period), but that the reasons for why women in general had less power and influence in the real medieval period are, in many areas, not comparable in Westeros.

The biggest change in the mindset of the medieval period and today is that religion was not optional. The Bible was taken as the absolute truth of all things and the notion it was incorrect or wrong was utterly unfathomable (resulting in the incandescent rage that was caused when people did start questioning and trying to change it, like Martin Luther or Henry VIII). Eve being responsible for the Fall and the Original Sin wasn't mythology, it was taken as incontrovertible fact. That had a strong impact on the view of women in the time period.

For ASoIaF the same explanation does not exist. The Seven are a more equal and enlightened religion with (as far as we know) no comparable negative stories/myths about women. As a result we are left with the impression that the sole reason women in Westeros are less powerful than men is down to martial prowess alone, which seems overly simplistic.
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Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 17/12/2011 01:36:54 PM 1671 Views
Hm, ok. - 17/12/2011 10:51:21 PM 1084 Views
I think we largely agree - 17/12/2011 11:23:00 PM 976 Views
Re: Hm, ok. - 26/12/2011 01:08:14 AM 972 Views
Martin, Goodkind... - 18/12/2011 01:58:33 PM 981 Views
More than just those - 18/12/2011 08:15:27 PM 907 Views
Re: More than just those - 26/12/2011 01:13:21 AM 842 Views
Re: Martin, Goodkind... - 26/12/2011 01:11:12 AM 864 Views
On more of a "meta" level, what makes a fantasy story "gritty" in the first place? - 19/12/2011 02:58:57 PM 859 Views
There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 03:47:56 PM 1017 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 05:29:30 PM 888 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 19/12/2011 09:06:14 PM 870 Views
I agree about Martin - haven't read enough Bakker to judge. - 19/12/2011 09:56:17 PM 921 Views
My problem with aSoIaF... - 20/12/2011 05:16:42 AM 912 Views
The Rhoynish influence pretty much ends in Dorne. - 20/12/2011 06:15:54 AM 894 Views
And that makes sense? - 20/12/2011 08:54:16 AM 981 Views
Yes and no. - 20/12/2011 03:10:54 PM 1017 Views
Re: Yes and no. - 26/12/2011 03:12:01 AM 873 Views
The power and influence of women in the Middle Ages was limited, but not non-existent. - 26/12/2011 01:37:40 PM 834 Views
Re: And that makes sense? - 18/05/2012 01:42:52 AM 945 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 20/12/2011 12:21:39 PM 827 Views
That's a question for each reader to answer then. - 20/12/2011 03:20:39 PM 729 Views
You appear to have not understood my point. - 20/12/2011 05:59:07 PM 778 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:14:04 AM 797 Views
Re: There has to be something more, though. - 26/12/2011 03:01:34 AM 816 Views
That's my general take as well - 20/12/2011 07:15:51 AM 803 Views
I like violence *NM* - 20/12/2011 07:51:39 PM 348 Views
Re: Violence, rape, and agency in the "gritty fantasies" - 25/12/2011 11:52:41 PM 1007 Views

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