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What the hell, might as well go and play devil's advocate, right? Legolas Send a noteboard - 30/01/2012 04:50:30 PM
You may be right about the orcs/goblins; we can't know. I, however, always thought of them as corrupted beings, much the same way angels were supposedly corrupted down into demons and devils - a process that takes them from pearly-shininess to grody, slimy darkness. Orcs/goblins don't give me racist feelings at all. I do agree about the men on Sauron's side, and almost mentioned that. Just because it is a historical connection (the main theme he seems to have featured in his novels) to centuries-long history between Europeans and more exotic races, doesn't mean it isn't racist in tone.

What do you do with the orcs and goblins if you don't believe in real demons and devils, though? And very few people nowadays do, I would think. They are evil cannon fodder that you can slaughter en masse without ever feeling guilty about it, allowing you to have heroic battles and whatnot without ever needing to feel bad for the other side. It's the same technique that's been used in war propaganda across the centuries - often against enemies that weren't even of a different race exactly, that's true, but still, it was of course easier when they were of a different race.

And if one is black, those associations between white being good and black or dark-skinned being bad might not be considered so innocent.

I have never heard that, but I would say that it seems we're in that narrow area between not being politically correct and getting into actual racism. It would be much worse if he had turned the dwarves into evil characters, but they certainly are not, and he didn't repeatedly connect them to other Jewish stereotypes, unless I'm simply not aware of what/how. Yet again, it seems that he was less careful about using stereotypical definitions, not necessarily trying to make a racist statement - unless we're counting positive racism? "Hey, dwarves are Jews, BUT look how much we love them!"

The Dwarves do get less love than the Elves and good humans, though, even if the Elven snobbery towards Dwarves is criticized at times as Dom noted. Like I said - and like Dan analyzed very well in his reply higher up - it's all a matter of whether you distinguish between the more ordinary definition of racism and the subtler, insidious (to borrow Larry's word) one - she doesn't, much.
Unfortunately, I feel like I look like I'm making excuses, but I am just telling you how I've interpreted these things while reading. I always thought Eowyn was stupidly impetuous when she didn't listen to Theoden telling her how much the people needed her. I thought that at the end, she lost her crush and met someone she could actually love (rather than being married off for convenience or ties) and realized that great people (she is more than just a woman) have certain responsibilities. It always seemed more like "growing up" to me than falling back into a "place." So anyway. Maybe I'm wrong, who knows.

I'll have to get back to this after my class, time to go now. :)
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The racist elements in Tolkien's writing - 29/01/2012 01:31:02 PM 2436 Views
She has some points, of course. - 29/01/2012 02:25:32 PM 1224 Views
Quite a few points - 29/01/2012 02:40:45 PM 1318 Views
Re: Quite a few points - 29/01/2012 04:59:11 PM 1085 Views
Mostly agreed with the article, but thought she undermined herself with her own racism. - 29/01/2012 02:50:11 PM 1287 Views
I wish I could agree with you, but I can't in full - 29/01/2012 02:58:05 PM 1286 Views
I'm not bothered by the tone. Annoyance is justified. - 29/01/2012 03:03:07 PM 1230 Views
Re: I wish I could agree with you, but I can't in full - 30/01/2012 02:11:07 PM 1230 Views
Do you really believe that? - 30/01/2012 02:44:19 PM 1292 Views
Just read your Twitter convo... nice try, but looks like wasted effort. *NM* - 29/01/2012 10:37:08 PM 554 Views
Yes. - 29/01/2012 10:41:15 PM 973 Views
Oh, also: - 29/01/2012 03:07:03 PM 1032 Views
Well, I'll be honest. - 29/01/2012 10:34:46 PM 1162 Views
Let me try to summarize some of her points with the invective filtered out, then. - 29/01/2012 10:48:24 PM 1359 Views
Thank you. - 29/01/2012 11:10:13 PM 1393 Views
What the hell, might as well go and play devil's advocate, right? - 30/01/2012 04:50:30 PM 1294 Views
I expected that. - 30/01/2012 05:39:59 PM 1198 Views
Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 30/01/2012 10:28:10 PM 1190 Views
Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 31/01/2012 12:39:46 AM 1081 Views
Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 31/01/2012 08:38:46 PM 1126 Views
I <3 you, but there are several very key things we are not going to agree on. - 31/01/2012 10:02:22 PM 1543 Views
Oh. - 31/01/2012 11:07:52 PM 1190 Views
- 01/02/2012 12:17:59 AM 1288 Views
Hmm? - 31/01/2012 10:10:22 PM 1112 Views
Yeah. I got to reading Encyclopedia of Arda just now, and it told me the same thing. - 31/01/2012 10:35:54 PM 1037 Views
As a sort of group answer (I've been mostly absent from forums the past two days) - 31/01/2012 10:45:55 PM 1381 Views
I don't mind if you tell me I'm out of line here, but - 31/01/2012 11:55:04 PM 1205 Views
I'm rarely ever offended - 01/02/2012 01:54:58 AM 1394 Views
She was referring specifically to the Twitter "conversation" I had with the blogger. - 01/02/2012 09:05:28 AM 1185 Views
Yes. - 01/02/2012 10:47:22 AM 1318 Views
It makes me wonder what she thinks is happening in Zimbabwe, for example. - 01/02/2012 11:13:11 AM 1344 Views
I've been thinking about that. - 01/02/2012 11:29:18 AM 1147 Views
Re: I've been thinking about that. - 01/02/2012 11:40:11 AM 1408 Views
We're nuts. - 01/02/2012 03:09:15 PM 1146 Views
I know that - 01/02/2012 11:15:48 AM 1204 Views
That blog post was mostly good, but the exception is a rather large one. - 01/02/2012 08:35:57 PM 1066 Views
Do you mean exception*S*? - 02/02/2012 04:27:03 AM 1136 Views
The Hobbit came out in 1937. - 30/01/2012 01:35:45 AM 1108 Views
She hates Tolkien's writings to begin with ... - 30/01/2012 06:34:29 AM 1254 Views
The tone of the article is massively annoying - 30/01/2012 06:45:19 AM 1294 Views
I laughed while reading it - 30/01/2012 04:30:50 PM 1159 Views

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