Active Users:206 Time:18/05/2024 11:34:38 AM
Quite a few points Larry Send a noteboard - 29/01/2012 02:40:45 PM
Requires Only That You Hate (one of my favorite blogs to read when I need a different perspective on the social/gender/racial issues found in SF/F fiction) has a thought-provoking article up on the racist and sexist elements in Tolkien's writing that addresses some of the usual defenses of his work. I thought this might be of interest to some here, so the link is below.

Not a huge fan of her tone at times (at other points I do find the blunt comments justified, though), and the Twitter convos she links to are hardly something to be proud of. Writing that "The neckbeards of today likewise think of themselves as progressive, liberal, and open to gay marriage – but spend your time in the company of any neckbeard and you quickly realize they are some of the most regressive people you’ll find outside of an Aryan Nation meeting" is fairly nonsensical.


But often that tone makes you have to think and react quicker, doesn't it? That's what I think some miss; being blunt can knock down certain walls, even if it sometimes raises others in their stead. That quote, however, I think makes a strong point about how self-deceiving we can be. "Oh! I'm not racist, but..." often with a callous, casual remark about a non-privileged group. Look at the blog "Stuff White People Like" and note the reactions to it. Her point is not pleasant at all to consider, but there is much to it.

That there are racist and sexist messages in Tolkien is difficult to deny; and the former aspect at least is almost inevitably copied into any Tolkienesque "high fantasy" (the sexism often as well). Still, it's important to note a passage like the one with Sam and the Easterling, or the ones where Galadriel's importance is underlined, in order to make clear that the racism and sexism are side-effects of Tolkien's nostalgia (as so often with nostalgia, one could say nostalgic to a past that never existed), rather than intentional propagations of his beliefs. Judging by the above-quoted comment, the blog author doesn't think the distinction is one worth making, but I certainly do. If you make a three-line summary of LotR, odds are it will sound like neo-Nazi propaganda; it's certainly important to point out that it's really not.


Casual, subconscious racist/sexist/classist thoughts/statements may not be as actively bad as a cross burning or spitting on suffragettes, but it is an insidious form of the latter that perpetuates the germ of such ugliness. As for the comment about Sam, isn't it more than countered with the other descriptions and comments in the trilogy? That's what I took from her discussion of it.

Her point about how the human-Elven couples in Tolkien all have Elven women and human men was new to me, though... I'd never really considered that before, that there are no men giving up their immortality for a mortal woman, or even just marrying one for the duration of her life. That said, Lúthien is the only one who does give up her immortality, and I do think she (like Galadriel) should count as a valid strong female character. Eowyn is admittedly a different story, and Arwen gets too little "screentime" to make any meaningful analysis.


But even in the case of Lúthien, what is she remembered for? Certainly not her actions.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
Reply to message
The racist elements in Tolkien's writing - 29/01/2012 01:31:02 PM 2436 Views
She has some points, of course. - 29/01/2012 02:25:32 PM 1224 Views
Quite a few points - 29/01/2012 02:40:45 PM 1318 Views
Re: Quite a few points - 29/01/2012 04:59:11 PM 1085 Views
Mostly agreed with the article, but thought she undermined herself with her own racism. - 29/01/2012 02:50:11 PM 1287 Views
I wish I could agree with you, but I can't in full - 29/01/2012 02:58:05 PM 1285 Views
I'm not bothered by the tone. Annoyance is justified. - 29/01/2012 03:03:07 PM 1230 Views
Re: I wish I could agree with you, but I can't in full - 30/01/2012 02:11:07 PM 1230 Views
Do you really believe that? - 30/01/2012 02:44:19 PM 1292 Views
Just read your Twitter convo... nice try, but looks like wasted effort. *NM* - 29/01/2012 10:37:08 PM 554 Views
Yes. - 29/01/2012 10:41:15 PM 973 Views
Oh, also: - 29/01/2012 03:07:03 PM 1032 Views
Well, I'll be honest. - 29/01/2012 10:34:46 PM 1162 Views
Let me try to summarize some of her points with the invective filtered out, then. - 29/01/2012 10:48:24 PM 1359 Views
Thank you. - 29/01/2012 11:10:13 PM 1393 Views
What the hell, might as well go and play devil's advocate, right? - 30/01/2012 04:50:30 PM 1293 Views
I expected that. - 30/01/2012 05:39:59 PM 1198 Views
Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 30/01/2012 10:28:10 PM 1190 Views
Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 31/01/2012 12:39:46 AM 1081 Views
Re: Of course you did. I'm predictable that way. - 31/01/2012 08:38:46 PM 1126 Views
I <3 you, but there are several very key things we are not going to agree on. - 31/01/2012 10:02:22 PM 1543 Views
Oh. - 31/01/2012 11:07:52 PM 1189 Views
- 01/02/2012 12:17:59 AM 1288 Views
Hmm? - 31/01/2012 10:10:22 PM 1112 Views
Yeah. I got to reading Encyclopedia of Arda just now, and it told me the same thing. - 31/01/2012 10:35:54 PM 1037 Views
As a sort of group answer (I've been mostly absent from forums the past two days) - 31/01/2012 10:45:55 PM 1381 Views
I don't mind if you tell me I'm out of line here, but - 31/01/2012 11:55:04 PM 1205 Views
I'm rarely ever offended - 01/02/2012 01:54:58 AM 1394 Views
She was referring specifically to the Twitter "conversation" I had with the blogger. - 01/02/2012 09:05:28 AM 1185 Views
Yes. - 01/02/2012 10:47:22 AM 1318 Views
It makes me wonder what she thinks is happening in Zimbabwe, for example. - 01/02/2012 11:13:11 AM 1344 Views
I've been thinking about that. - 01/02/2012 11:29:18 AM 1147 Views
Re: I've been thinking about that. - 01/02/2012 11:40:11 AM 1408 Views
We're nuts. - 01/02/2012 03:09:15 PM 1146 Views
I know that - 01/02/2012 11:15:48 AM 1204 Views
That blog post was mostly good, but the exception is a rather large one. - 01/02/2012 08:35:57 PM 1066 Views
Do you mean exception*S*? - 02/02/2012 04:27:03 AM 1136 Views
The Hobbit came out in 1937. - 30/01/2012 01:35:45 AM 1108 Views
She hates Tolkien's writings to begin with ... - 30/01/2012 06:34:29 AM 1254 Views
The tone of the article is massively annoying - 30/01/2012 06:45:19 AM 1294 Views
I laughed while reading it - 30/01/2012 04:30:50 PM 1159 Views

Reply to Message