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Why is it that the Israelis are routinely not believed and the Palestinian extremists are? Tom Send a noteboard - 31/05/2010 08:17:09 PM
The Russian website that I frequent actually immediately accepted the Israeli version as the more likely source of truth. They note that unarmed people can't harm heavily-armed commandos with flak jackets, etc. and that anyone attacking such a person should realize they're going to be killed. In fact, the Israeli response was called "measured" because, said one expert, they could have just torpedoed the ships and been done with it.

While Israel's blockade of Gaza is harsh, Israel's enemies have everything to gain by lying about this incident to make out Israel as the "bad guy". The Russians seem to imply that Erdogan incited the incident to have an excuse to break off relations with Israel.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Israeli attack on aid convoy Camilla - 31/05/2010 10:21:02 AM 2801 Views
Seems a bit of a mess. Rebekah - 31/05/2010 11:09:04 AM 1443 Views
Re: Seems a bit of a mess. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:14:45 PM 1478 Views
Israel was in a no win situation Wibble - 31/05/2010 12:09:13 PM 1712 Views
And Mr Hague has just made his 1st mistake Wibble - 31/05/2010 12:26:28 PM 1735 Views
you do realize israel had plenty of options to deter the boats other than opening fire on them? moondog - 31/05/2010 06:20:03 PM 1875 Views
do you realize they didn't open fire on the ship? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:51:53 PM 1420 Views
supposedly the boat being boarded shouted "we are raising the white flag, stop shooting" moondog - 31/05/2010 07:54:49 PM 1644 Views
Why is it that the Israelis are routinely not believed and the Palestinian extremists are? Tom - 31/05/2010 08:17:09 PM 1638 Views
probably because israel has a history of opening fire on people they don't agree with? moondog - 31/05/2010 08:26:19 PM 1561 Views
And the Palestinians don't? And obnoxious Turks don't? *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 09:02:20 PM 615 Views
this was not a palestinian boat moondog - 31/05/2010 09:09:47 PM 1559 Views
I'm aware of that. But there were some Palestinians on board from what I read. Tom - 31/05/2010 10:03:59 PM 1492 Views
And a holocaust survivor and a Scottish journalist. Quite the mixed bag, really. *NM* snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:04:52 PM 673 Views
No it was TURKS!!!!!!!!! p hart - 31/05/2010 11:09:49 PM 1497 Views
supposed by who? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 08:47:47 PM 1778 Views
From what I heard, 11 dead. jh - 31/05/2010 12:26:59 PM 1557 Views
Norwegian news is saying "at least 19" Camilla - 31/05/2010 12:29:14 PM 1445 Views
It's a PR disaster, surely. Legolas - 31/05/2010 12:31:50 PM 1536 Views
What Legolas said... Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 01:56:56 PM 1553 Views
To be fair: they said they'd never let the flotilla through so what did people expect? *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 02:01:10 PM 677 Views
A) No killings, and B) No open sea piracy. jh - 31/05/2010 02:23:28 PM 1569 Views
Enforcing a blockade isn't piracy, and violence was a predictable result. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 02:35:35 PM 667 Views
That defense gets sketchy if it was in international waters. *NM* Camilla - 31/05/2010 02:37:00 PM 685 Views
Why? Because of international "law"? I doubt the US will agree to do anything to Israel. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 02:55:29 PM 695 Views
And in turn I doubt China will agree to do anything about Iran. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:18:59 PM 1349 Views
Not likely. Tom - 31/05/2010 05:37:42 PM 1477 Views
Interestingly enough, one of our problems with China seemd to vanish from the news... Vodalus - 01/06/2010 02:02:35 AM 1400 Views
Nice catch. Joel - 01/06/2010 09:56:03 AM 1559 Views
A little digging around has turned up a few nuggets. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 10:12:10 PM 1531 Views
*shrug* Your opinions are not worth water in this question. jh - 31/05/2010 03:05:31 PM 1580 Views
Sure, whatever. *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 05:38:23 PM 673 Views
ships are boarded in international waters all of the time *NM* random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:53:53 PM 624 Views
Yes, but then the pirates are hunted down and shot by the russians. *NM* jh - 31/05/2010 09:15:52 PM 606 Views
in this case it was Israel that hunt them down and shot them *NM* random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:34:19 AM 657 Views
No, those would be the pirates. *NM* jh - 01/06/2010 10:03:37 AM 727 Views
no those would be tghe radicals that got them selfs killed trying to run a blockade. *NM* random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:42:23 AM 729 Views
What ship did they board? *NM* jh - 02/06/2010 01:42:17 PM 707 Views
It is impressive that you are still trying Camilla - 02/06/2010 02:59:02 PM 1541 Views
no it is just a stupid and inaccurate analogy random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:05:32 PM 1561 Views
Well, that are two concepts that you are intimately familiar with... jh - 02/06/2010 07:30:07 PM 1628 Views
and talking with you only makes me more familar with the issues random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:41:20 PM 1405 Views
Calling me a Jew-hater now? jh - 02/06/2010 08:23:08 PM 1614 Views
you compare Israel to North Korea and want to talk about stupid random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:34:03 PM 1335 Views
Propaganda is propaganda. You're the one who chooses to believe in it. *NM* jh - 02/06/2010 10:13:42 PM 680 Views
thats funny coming from you *NM* random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:08:41 PM 741 Views
Indeed. *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:30:11 PM 755 Views
Um, I know what I expected: that they wouldn't kill anyone. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 04:02:38 PM 675 Views
Ideally, that wouldn't have happened. But when are real life situations ever ideal? Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:29:50 PM 1579 Views
That's a bit of a meager excuse. Legolas - 31/05/2010 04:42:35 PM 1585 Views
It's not an excuse, more of a "they were warned". *NM* Rebekah - 31/05/2010 04:52:39 PM 688 Views
Why did Israel have to waste time and effort "exhausting peaceful options" in the first place? Tom - 31/05/2010 05:41:59 PM 1492 Views
I don't think it was so inexorable that the result would be that. Legolas - 31/05/2010 05:57:29 PM 1494 Views
To be fair: this is israel's typical response to international pro-palestinian protest groups moondog - 31/05/2010 06:37:25 PM 1322 Views
This won't change anything random thoughts - 31/05/2010 06:04:54 PM 1446 Views
Re: This won't change anything Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:13:36 PM 1446 Views
Here's the link. Vodalus - 31/05/2010 06:44:06 PM 1410 Views
America and Turkey are military allies, so they do care. Werthead - 31/05/2010 06:14:21 PM 1673 Views
yes and that alliance came in so handy back in 2003 random thoughts - 31/05/2010 07:50:12 PM 1518 Views
That nearly all went extremely wrong. Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:20:41 PM 1664 Views
Yes...why are we allied with a country like that? Tom - 31/05/2010 08:22:12 PM 1412 Views
Positioning Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:54:56 PM 1655 Views
Question snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:00:43 PM 1561 Views
The Turkish people is certainly quite anti-American Floffe - 31/05/2010 11:26:37 PM 1618 Views
I thought we were talking Government policy? snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:21:53 PM 1620 Views
Re: I thought we were talking Government policy? p hart - 01/06/2010 05:18:56 PM 1654 Views
The Israelis warned them. If they resisted violently they knew they would/could get shot dead. Tom - 31/05/2010 02:34:38 PM 1641 Views
Most likely true. jh - 31/05/2010 03:06:55 PM 1489 Views
An Israeli friend on fb Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:15:32 PM 1464 Views
That sounds like utter nonsense. *NM* Camilla - 31/05/2010 04:18:06 PM 758 Views
Because? *NM* Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:18:45 PM 618 Views
The Israeli army would know better than to send soldiers with paintball guns Camilla - 31/05/2010 04:20:52 PM 1506 Views
Maybe "paintball guns" is a way of saying non-lethal guns Bramhodoulos - 31/05/2010 04:25:05 PM 1594 Views
actiually, it is *NM* aragornital - 01/06/2010 08:19:02 PM 803 Views
Because soldiers going into a dangerous situation don't carry paintball guns SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 04:21:50 PM 1520 Views
you can't fire rubber bullets on a ship AgentOrange - 31/05/2010 05:17:31 PM 1463 Views
Generalization SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:22:58 PM 1431 Views
I highly doubt they held paintball guns. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:01:15 PM 1596 Views
Not least if one goes on the latest accounts coming out snoopcester - 31/05/2010 05:07:46 PM 1479 Views
I see, this may have caused the confusion... Bramhodoulos - 01/06/2010 04:19:22 PM 1492 Views
Actually, some Israeli military sources are saying that some commandos had paintball guns snoopcester - 01/06/2010 04:53:12 PM 1578 Views
Paintball weapons? Weird. They don't hurt nad enough to incapacitate. everynametaken - 02/06/2010 01:32:33 AM 1586 Views
Plus they have a tendency to jam. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:46:18 AM 1440 Views
It sucks, but I don't think the Israelis really had any choice. SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 04:20:07 PM 1583 Views
two points of criticism moondog - 31/05/2010 06:50:31 PM 1393 Views
Those could be valid. SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 05:45:35 PM 1675 Views
On the blockade... Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:06:24 PM 1517 Views
three years is the number I keep seeing random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:22:05 PM 1455 Views
So what do you think would've happened if Israel hadn't tried to stop the convoy? Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:47:52 PM 1552 Views
your rationale assumes people would have believed them random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:05:34 PM 1569 Views
Of course it does. Legolas - 02/06/2010 08:00:34 PM 1504 Views
how? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:50:21 PM 1583 Views
Two pistols? snoopcester - 02/06/2010 07:06:35 PM 1489 Views
pipes were last minute? there is video of them using them before the ships were even boarded random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:43:06 PM 1440 Views
There is footage of them preparing them before the Israeli forces arrived? snoopcester - 02/06/2010 07:46:26 PM 1550 Views
look at the link I posted at the bottom random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:03:18 PM 1422 Views
Perhaps you linked the wrong one? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:13:33 PM 1329 Views
you argument requires we believe they were surprised the IDF showed up random thoughts - 03/06/2010 01:59:07 PM 1464 Views
You require we don't know much about ships or common sense snoopcester - 03/06/2010 02:16:25 PM 1390 Views
Okay folks - ease off SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 03:04:18 PM 1422 Views
the naval blockade has been firmly in place for the last 3-ish years, but.... moondog - 03/06/2010 02:48:11 AM 1568 Views
I'm a bit confused by what you're saying about Egypt. Legolas - 03/06/2010 09:53:27 AM 1425 Views
confused by which part? moondog - 03/06/2010 04:15:22 PM 1530 Views
Nor does Egypt allow aid into Gaza, except for the occasional medical supply. Rebekah - 03/06/2010 04:21:27 PM 1334 Views
egypt does open the border against israel's wishes though moondog - 03/06/2010 04:30:46 PM 1546 Views
Only when it suits them to a) claim Arab brotherhood, and b) make political hay. Rebekah - 03/06/2010 05:58:54 PM 1426 Views
Other sources don't agree snoopcester - 03/06/2010 04:29:03 PM 1403 Views
ah yes. see, there are actually two different barriers being discussed here moondog - 04/06/2010 01:14:21 AM 1418 Views
I understood that Egypt was for it? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:15:58 PM 1429 Views
see the article i linked to in reply to legolas *NM* moondog - 03/06/2010 04:17:08 PM 666 Views
So Israel has committed international piracy so it can keep up the collective punishment of children snoopcester - 31/05/2010 04:52:40 PM 1642 Views
Darn! You posted "stay classy" first. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:04:08 PM 1377 Views
Muahahahahaha! snoopcester - 31/05/2010 05:05:20 PM 1520 Views
I don't get the reference Camilla - 31/05/2010 05:14:41 PM 1426 Views
How does that even make sense ? AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:17:26 AM 1537 Views
I was talking in general terms snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:24:12 PM 1450 Views
The UN treaty does not class this as piracy SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 06:10:35 PM 1616 Views
Interesting - I guess I need to rephrase to them acting like pirates snoopcester - 02/06/2010 06:58:18 PM 1460 Views
It's more some kind of violation of sovreign soil I expect SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 08:04:11 PM 1632 Views
Seems so snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:00:54 PM 1267 Views
I don't really have a bone in this fight cmdjing - 31/05/2010 04:54:59 PM 1642 Views
And exactly how would you suggest doing this 'disabling'? SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:02:21 PM 1383 Views
They do have the equivalent of SEALS I would imagine. everynametaken - 31/05/2010 05:08:50 PM 1474 Views
They certainly do SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:34:14 PM 1482 Views
Pretty easy actually cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:14:34 PM 1437 Views
No it ain't SilverWarder - 31/05/2010 05:27:39 PM 1509 Views
Sure it is cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:44:16 PM 1389 Views
Movies vs. Reality Grimbear - 01/06/2010 02:54:13 AM 1447 Views
If Israel was out for blood, how come there were no injuired on all the previous convoys ? AgentOrange - 31/05/2010 05:34:06 PM 1503 Views
Because Israel didn't go insane trying to stop the previous convoys? And even let some of them pass. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 05:37:22 PM 691 Views
go insane ? I expect you to make more sense than that AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:09:18 AM 1401 Views
I think "go insane" about covers it, yes. Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:11:27 AM 1458 Views
Who said the Israelis were "out for blood"? Most people just think it was a dumb move. *NM* everynametaken - 31/05/2010 07:58:14 PM 747 Views
Question: is your government ever going to fire Ayalon? Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:21:14 PM 1582 Views
What an amazing gift this will be for Sunni extremists and Shiite activists. *NM* Vodalus - 31/05/2010 05:40:04 PM 789 Views
You think they needed this sort of thing to get whipped into a frenzy? Tom - 31/05/2010 05:48:39 PM 1403 Views
For themselves? No. But it will translate into a massive PR boon for them and their message. Vodalus - 31/05/2010 06:07:00 PM 1393 Views
Lesson: Don't try and run a blockade manned by people who are better armed than you. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 05:40:16 PM 1451 Views
America isn't blockading Cuba cmdjing - 31/05/2010 05:55:23 PM 1544 Views
Fine, change Venezuelan to American and it's the same thing. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 05:59:50 PM 1507 Views
Dude. There is no blockade. There are no American ships surrounding Cuba. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:04:22 PM 621 Views
Oh. Geeze I always thought the Americans had ships preventing vessils from reaching Cuba. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:18:42 PM 1433 Views
Only in 1961. Joel - 01/06/2010 10:02:59 AM 1526 Views
I'm not sure if the US physically enforces it cmdjing - 31/05/2010 06:11:57 PM 1399 Views
Well I'm not American. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:21:15 PM 1501 Views
Europe and Canada trade plenty with Cuba - and go on holidays there. Legolas - 31/05/2010 06:29:33 PM 1477 Views
No no I know. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 06:41:55 PM 1565 Views
The point of that snoopcester - 31/05/2010 06:42:46 PM 1361 Views
Yeah see I thought they did that with force of arms. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 07:09:08 PM 1439 Views
No the restrictions apply only to US Citizens BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 08:44:44 PM 1426 Views
They do not enforce it. The executive branch knows they will lose if they get challenged in court. BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 08:37:53 PM 1477 Views
The biggest problem for Israel is that this incident didn't occur on the blockade line. Werthead - 31/05/2010 06:25:38 PM 1595 Views
I find it odd that innocent unarmed civilians can seriously injure armed commandos random thoughts - 31/05/2010 06:47:55 PM 1542 Views
How dare you cloud the issue with facts! *NM* Tom - 31/05/2010 07:57:18 PM 604 Views
i never saw where they were called unarmed? moondog - 31/05/2010 08:33:03 PM 1461 Views
so they were armed relief workers? random thoughts - 31/05/2010 08:54:29 PM 1448 Views
we are pretty sure who fired first now random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:06:39 PM 1492 Views
oh, they released the footage shot on board the boat? moondog - 02/06/2010 04:13:25 PM 1499 Views
so you won't accept footage from the IDF? That will make believing whatever you want easier random thoughts - 02/06/2010 05:34:59 PM 1444 Views
yes, i should only believe the one side who has a case to prove instead of listening to both moondog - 03/06/2010 02:51:05 AM 1467 Views
that is a joke. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be your policy with Israel random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:06:57 PM 1451 Views
israel has a history of botching these things. forgive me if i follow the history... moondog - 04/06/2010 01:17:06 AM 1319 Views
and the radicals are known for their honesty, atleasy in what you like to think is reality random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:12:18 PM 1328 Views
Turkey has threatened to send military vessels with future aid convoys. Werthead - 31/05/2010 07:50:54 PM 1575 Views
If they do that, we should kick them out of NATO. Tom - 31/05/2010 07:56:47 PM 1593 Views
We can only hope. *NM* everynametaken - 31/05/2010 08:02:16 PM 685 Views
If by "help the Greek economy" you mean "make them bankrupt", it could work. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 08:04:14 PM 684 Views
What are you talking about? We'd subsidize their army and pump billions into their economy. Tom - 31/05/2010 08:06:44 PM 1454 Views
I am talking about the fact that part of the reason for their current financial trouble... Legolas - 31/05/2010 08:49:43 PM 1552 Views
If I learned anything from Diplomacy, it was that BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 09:03:36 PM 1574 Views
Winter 2010? What version of Diplomacy are you playing? Tom - 31/05/2010 09:45:38 PM 1438 Views
Re: Winter 2010? What version of Diplomacy are you playing? BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 10:12:22 PM 1526 Views
Not entirely necessary. Werthead - 31/05/2010 08:30:09 PM 1620 Views
UPDATE: Proof that IDF soldiers were attacked as they boarded the Turkish ship Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:23:02 PM 1631 Views
"Violent, extremist attack"? Are you for real? Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:29:43 PM 1543 Views
What else would you call it? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:43:01 PM 1511 Views
Okay, in that case it's more justified. Sorry. Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:45:18 PM 1548 Views
Attempting to repel boarders? Or is that to unbiased a term for you? snoopcester - 31/05/2010 09:56:31 PM 1411 Views
Except these "armed pirates" were soldiers. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 10:00:14 PM 1506 Views
Acting illegally. snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:01:31 PM 1512 Views
I guess Americans off the Somali coast boarding vessils the suspect to be pirate ships... Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:16:38 PM 1497 Views
I'm quite sure they have legal permission to board from the owners of those ships *NM* Floffe - 31/05/2010 11:29:08 PM 694 Views
I seriously doubt it. Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:37:53 PM 1630 Views
Wrong boat. *NM* Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:35:46 AM 694 Views
That's why I said "owners" and not "the guys running it" *NM* Floffe - 01/06/2010 06:39:56 AM 669 Views
And yet most of the pirates own their own boats. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 03:50:47 PM 1395 Views
I was talking about the hijacked ships Floffe - 01/06/2010 04:01:02 PM 1510 Views
Aparently it's routine now for militaries to pick up little boats of pirates. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:26:35 PM 1589 Views
You think boarding ships legally passing through international waters is the same thing? snoopcester - 01/06/2010 03:55:03 PM 1611 Views
I do. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:30:20 PM 1646 Views
Wrong snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:47:54 AM 1524 Views
legal seems to be a very fuzzy concept these days random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:46:47 AM 1465 Views
legal is a fuzzy concept every day... moondog - 01/06/2010 05:43:17 AM 1269 Views
When it comes to international law, it can be applied when you aren't powerful enough Helene - 01/06/2010 07:56:50 AM 1440 Views
International law, in its current incarnation is a sad joke SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 04:24:18 PM 1456 Views
As in Israel does what it likes and the US does the best it can to allow it. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:29:20 PM 1422 Views
the ships publicly announced they were going to run the blockade random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:37:00 AM 1516 Views
Israel should have waited till they were in Israeli waters snoopcester - 02/06/2010 11:57:40 AM 1543 Views
the timing? Israel is not the one who set the timing for the publicity stunt random thoughts - 02/06/2010 03:02:36 PM 1515 Views
i highly doubt european MPs were expecting to be shot at by the IDF moondog - 03/06/2010 03:05:27 AM 1502 Views
sorry but you are still wrong because atleast one of the ships did have a fight witht them random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:12:10 PM 1562 Views
Israel has no control of the actions of the IDF then? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:07:28 PM 1470 Views
"The timing shows, I think, what the Israeli priority is - on a US holiday, again." random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:22:58 PM 1388 Views
are you for real? random thoughts - 01/06/2010 04:45:21 AM 1478 Views
There was a misunderstanding, and I apologized to Dragonsoul. See above. *NM* Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:13:08 AM 678 Views
Looks like they got what they asked for... Grimbear - 31/05/2010 10:00:53 PM 1396 Views
Oh? snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:24:09 PM 1564 Views
Re: Oh? Grimbear - 01/06/2010 02:44:15 AM 1643 Views
Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 12:28:22 PM 1470 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. Grimbear - 01/06/2010 04:02:48 PM 1677 Views
It's a fair point as far as it goes... Legolas - 01/06/2010 04:37:44 PM 1459 Views
You've seen the video. Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:12:29 PM 1362 Views
Re: It's a fair point as far as it goes... Grimbear - 02/06/2010 12:19:50 AM 1587 Views
When will people ever learn SilverWarder - 02/06/2010 05:58:19 PM 1585 Views
metal pipes and knifes are deadly force random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:08:57 PM 1497 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 01/06/2010 04:43:32 PM 1435 Views
Again I ask you: Does that make American soldiers who board ships off the Somali coast.... Dragonsoul - 01/06/2010 09:13:35 PM 1523 Views
They are clearly different cases. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 12:00:20 PM 1468 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. Grimbear - 02/06/2010 12:38:41 AM 1657 Views
Re: Ah, I follow that now. snoopcester - 02/06/2010 12:18:24 PM 1532 Views
israel offered to take the aid packages because they wanted to keep the non-approved aid moondog - 01/06/2010 01:47:42 AM 1592 Views
I guess it does make things simplier if you just always blame Israel random thoughts - 02/06/2010 01:44:56 AM 1444 Views
i guess it makes things simpler if you don't allow for nuanced positions and take one side moondog - 02/06/2010 01:56:53 AM 1419 Views
I am blind? I am not the one ignoring the facts random thoughts - 02/06/2010 05:29:43 PM 1531 Views
You are however the one who refuses to allow nuances. Legolas - 02/06/2010 06:40:01 PM 1423 Views
which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:37:54 PM 1506 Views
Israel had hours more to go in Floffe - 02/06/2010 07:51:14 PM 1397 Views
Hmm snoopcester - 02/06/2010 08:09:48 PM 1509 Views
so they were scheduled to arive on an American holiday? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:52:08 PM 1524 Views
The first one where it has ended in Israeli troops kiling people? snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:02:12 PM 1464 Views
what would have been the point of waiting? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 08:54:57 PM 1458 Views
if they had waited, they could have claimed the moral high ground that they did everything possible moondog - 03/06/2010 02:24:49 AM 1613 Views
yes because their critics are so open minded random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:38:46 PM 1418 Views
it is reall simple. who deicded when the ships would sail? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:40:54 PM 1381 Views
you are just as close minded as you claim israel's critics to be. moondog - 03/06/2010 04:29:59 PM 1404 Views
refusing to to believe silliness is not being close minded random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:50:26 PM 1314 Views
you're missing the point again. moondog - 04/06/2010 01:21:50 AM 1428 Views
that is because they really are not very good points random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:21:53 PM 1535 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 02/06/2010 08:27:20 PM 1473 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 09:23:22 PM 1337 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 03/06/2010 10:25:01 AM 1599 Views
Never mind concrete Camilla - 03/06/2010 10:55:36 AM 1487 Views
That is quite understandable snoopcester - 03/06/2010 01:17:42 PM 1494 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:07:56 PM 1504 Views
Re: which nuances am I ignoring? Legolas - 03/06/2010 07:02:34 PM 1480 Views
don't dismiss the importance of using darkness random thoughts - 03/06/2010 08:17:11 PM 1591 Views
one more thing random thoughts - 03/06/2010 09:08:46 PM 1502 Views
Yes, there were much more people aboard than needed to get the ships where they were going Floffe - 02/06/2010 07:05:26 PM 1472 Views
so who placed those in people in harms way to make a politcal statement? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM 1452 Views
Everyone I'm aware of who was on the ships chose to do so themselves Floffe - 02/06/2010 10:13:53 PM 1540 Views
if their stance is non violence then they need to condemn anyone who started the violence random thoughts - 03/06/2010 03:10:46 PM 1416 Views
Many of the people who were onboard have just been released Floffe - 03/06/2010 03:40:26 PM 1406 Views
that is encouraging random thoughts - 03/06/2010 04:07:09 PM 1461 Views
and who made me double post? random thoughts - 02/06/2010 07:58:19 PM 1405 Views
your facts have nothing to do with the discussion in this thread. moondog - 03/06/2010 02:42:06 AM 1388 Views
so everything is Israel's fault. Remoind me again how they came to be in Gaza random thoughts - 03/06/2010 01:55:14 PM 1438 Views
you're being extremist again. it's not very becoming... *NM* moondog - 03/06/2010 04:22:18 PM 605 Views
not believing that Israel can just leave Gaza alone makes me an extremist? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 06:02:15 PM 1363 Views
translating everyting i say into "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist. *NM* moondog - 04/06/2010 01:24:33 AM 664 Views
saying "israel is 100% at fault every time" is being extremist *NM* random thoughts - 04/06/2010 02:13:22 PM 557 Views
*cough* *NM* Camilla - 04/06/2010 02:34:04 PM 619 Views
If the Turks had any balls Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:35:32 PM 1510 Views
Because you know.... Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:44:10 PM 1447 Views
right.... *NM* Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:57:20 PM 785 Views
So they weren't being attacked? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:58:25 PM 1459 Views
If the Turks had any integrity, they'd own up to their ongoing genocide of the Kurds Tom - 31/05/2010 09:46:53 PM 1192 Views
Now you're moving from Turcophobia to blatant fiction. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 09:56:00 PM 718 Views
Fine. How about they own up to their genocide of the Armenians then? Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 09:57:48 PM 1449 Views
Fair enough stance, but that doesn't justify Tom making things up. "Ongoing genocide" is nonsense. *NM* Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:16:53 PM 653 Views
the Turks are assholes in regards to their complete denial of the past (Armenia, kurds) Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:56:29 PM 1548 Views
wait a second...... "ongoing genocide of the Kurds" Aisha - 31/05/2010 09:59:18 PM 1662 Views
No. Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:09:15 PM 1582 Views
Yes, for both you and Legolas, allow me to share the following: Tom - 31/05/2010 10:16:18 PM 1732 Views
That's not "ongoing". Legolas - 31/05/2010 10:29:36 PM 1505 Views
The fact that it happened within the past five years is recent enough for me. Tom - 01/06/2010 12:14:24 AM 1534 Views
The absence of anything resembling genocide or massacres dates back a lot longer than that. Legolas - 01/06/2010 12:28:32 AM 1620 Views
You seem to be relying on what happened in the past snoopcester - 31/05/2010 10:34:37 PM 1517 Views
Here's something recent fromSmithsonian. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:09:58 AM 1345 Views
Uh-oh. Ocalan just announced he's abandoning efforts to seek dialogue with Turkey. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 04:48:24 AM 1633 Views
I don't know how closely you've been following it, but... Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:18:46 AM 1515 Views
UPDATE: Compromise reached BlackAdder - 31/05/2010 11:20:32 PM 1472 Views
lol if only it were that easy *NM* Dragonsoul - 31/05/2010 11:39:06 PM 608 Views
Oh, I wish. Great Lord of Chaos - 31/05/2010 11:41:27 PM 1506 Views
A long time ago a very wise man told me..... Druid - 01/06/2010 12:33:12 AM 1782 Views
Goetic imprecations Vodalus - 01/06/2010 01:34:47 AM 1387 Views
The Turkish response has been making me wonder about something. Vodalus - 01/06/2010 05:38:42 AM 1437 Views
It does make sense. Obama has put alot of effort into renewing the peace process AgentOrange - 01/06/2010 07:14:40 AM 1496 Views
I really doubt it. Legolas - 01/06/2010 11:24:45 AM 1678 Views
Russian websites have speculated it was intentional Turkish provocation. Tom - 01/06/2010 02:04:39 PM 1541 Views
FREE CYPRUS! Tom - 01/06/2010 08:18:44 PM 1380 Views
There's an Irish boat currently en route Stephen - 02/06/2010 12:06:44 PM 1368 Views
Here is some video of the innocent victims attacking the IDF random thoughts - 02/06/2010 06:03:33 PM 1464 Views
you're still posting video released by the IDF to prove the IDF's case. moondog - 03/06/2010 03:01:16 AM 1480 Views
Doesn't really matter SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 01:16:35 PM 1424 Views
dude lookat that camera angle and tell me who was shooting it random thoughts - 03/06/2010 02:08:02 PM 1444 Views
look at who posted that video and tell me a longer version exists moondog - 03/06/2010 04:21:26 PM 1483 Views
so the IDF is guilty until proven innocent? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 04:24:45 PM 1397 Views
as i said to you before. if you are found running from a crime did you commit that crime? moondog - 03/06/2010 04:34:14 PM 1343 Views
have you not seen the footage of the men being attacked as they came off of the helicopter? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:51:47 PM 1256 Views
Did you even watch the video? SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 09:07:45 PM 1627 Views
i've seen both videos, and they both begin in the middle of the confrontation moondog - 04/06/2010 01:28:24 AM 1469 Views
No, they don't SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:58:40 AM 1285 Views
actually, yes they do. but you will obviously not understand so i am done. *NM* moondog - 04/06/2010 07:53:40 AM 572 Views
I think his point Camilla - 04/06/2010 02:40:43 PM 1450 Views
Oh, I get that SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 03:18:36 PM 1624 Views
Re: Oh, I get that Camilla - 04/06/2010 03:25:05 PM 1502 Views
Re: Oh, I get that SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 04:43:35 PM 1389 Views
Re: Oh, I get that Camilla - 04/06/2010 04:58:04 PM 1432 Views
Not what I said SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:38:30 PM 1544 Views
Re: Not what I said Camilla - 04/06/2010 05:41:06 PM 1427 Views
Re: Not what I said SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 05:53:16 PM 1393 Views
Re: Not what I said Camilla - 04/06/2010 05:57:34 PM 1366 Views
Still not understanding SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:16:04 PM 1278 Views
Re: Still not understanding Camilla - 04/06/2010 06:17:34 PM 1414 Views
Nothing wrong with being special SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:43:27 PM 1413 Views
Re: Nothing wrong with being special Camilla - 04/06/2010 06:45:29 PM 1534 Views
That's silly SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 04:28:34 PM 1518 Views
i know the helicopters were not gunships, but there is such a thing as aggressive flying moondog - 03/06/2010 04:32:18 PM 1450 Views
aggressive flying???? what does that even mean? random thoughts - 03/06/2010 05:57:09 PM 1254 Views
You've GOT to be joking SilverWarder - 03/06/2010 09:02:35 PM 1433 Views
i've already conceded the point, there is no need for insults please moondog - 04/06/2010 01:30:08 AM 1426 Views
When I insult you - don't worry, you'll know SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:02:25 AM 1305 Views
yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying" moondog - 04/06/2010 07:51:16 AM 1519 Views
Re: yes i want to watch "boring helicopter flying" SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 04:39:15 PM 1464 Views
the point moondog - 04/06/2010 06:07:46 PM 1301 Views
Well this should sort out part of the dispute SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 06:56:17 PM 1297 Views
Re: Well this should sort out part of the dispute Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:03:15 PM 1383 Views
Interesting, but not surprising SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 07:10:41 PM 1413 Views
Re: Interesting, but not surprising Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:14:51 PM 1414 Views
They have to bite though - that's the problem SilverWarder - 04/06/2010 08:24:17 PM 1406 Views
Re: They have to bite though - that's the problem Camilla - 04/06/2010 08:27:17 PM 1458 Views
Only if they want to maintain the blockade, which they shouldn't. Legolas - 04/06/2010 11:37:40 PM 1469 Views
I kind of doubt that the Israelis killed by Iranian rockets would be for lifting it. SilverWarder - 05/06/2010 06:27:05 AM 1485 Views
Dead people aren't generally for anything, I dare say. Legolas - 05/06/2010 10:38:54 AM 1524 Views
Might be a plan SilverWarder - 06/06/2010 12:28:36 AM 1477 Views
almost all weapons smuggled into gaza come from the tunnels under the current land barriers moondog - 06/06/2010 12:54:12 AM 1412 Views
Mmmhmmmm SilverWarder - 07/06/2010 08:25:09 AM 1381 Views
are you so blinded to think it would not be paraded as proof the blockade is working? moondog - 07/06/2010 08:48:25 AM 1422 Views
You should really Google before making such statements SilverWarder - 07/06/2010 08:50:52 PM 1784 Views
interesting how only one of those was direct to gaza. and that was in 2001.... moondog - 07/06/2010 11:45:14 PM 1328 Views
First you say that there was nothing SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 05:30:29 AM 1262 Views
after this i am done moondog - 08/06/2010 07:31:18 AM 1533 Views
Fine with me - see here's the thing SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 03:01:04 PM 1529 Views
sounds like you think the blockade is working random thoughts - 07/06/2010 02:13:36 PM 1581 Views
what is it that you think the blockade is designed to do? moondog - 07/06/2010 04:25:39 PM 1474 Views
I would guess it has two main goals random thoughts - 07/06/2010 09:01:03 PM 1469 Views
well, here's how i see it, and i know we're probably going to disagree... moondog - 08/06/2010 02:02:32 AM 2011 Views
What you describe might well work - but only for westerners SilverWarder - 08/06/2010 03:11:34 PM 1526 Views
that would be treating this like an insurgency where you want to win hearts and minds random thoughts - 08/06/2010 05:11:39 PM 2013 Views
That's rather scary. Legolas - 04/06/2010 11:41:11 PM 1500 Views
Re: That's rather scary. Camilla - 05/06/2010 08:45:25 AM 1440 Views
And then there is this Camilla - 04/06/2010 07:04:50 PM 1505 Views
this really angers me *NM* Aisha - 04/06/2010 11:05:52 PM 802 Views
You are so silly. snoopcester - 05/06/2010 12:36:57 AM 1499 Views
That is good to know Camilla - 05/06/2010 08:46:56 AM 1505 Views
what do you want to bet who started the violence suddenly won't matter random thoughts - 04/06/2010 07:07:17 PM 1465 Views
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