How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really?
Legolas Send a noteboard - 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM
You mentioned race and gender as being factors upon which people are differentiated. Those are factors which they can neither control nor have a choice over. Sexual preference, much as you stated, is just that....a preference. There is no proven genetic component which triggers homosexual behavior. On the contrary, it seems to be much more of a nurture component which changes the debate completely.
There are strong indications that there are genetic components, but okay, I admit I haven't seen rock solid proof yet either. But even if it is purely nurture, how does that change the debate completely? It's not something people can control, or have a choice over, regardless of whether it's genetic or a result of nurture somehow.
Certainly it's a choice to engage in sexual acts of a homosexual nature, precisely like it's a choice to engage in sexual acts of a heterosexual nature. In that sense, obviously people do have control over their sex life. But one doesn't control who one feels attracted to, or who one falls in love with. As is explained rather well in Judge Walker's opinion, this was less relevant back in the day when marriages of convenience were standard, and the primary goal of marriage was to form an economical unit, if at all possible with offspring, in which a certain labour division existed between men and women. It made sense for society to expect gay men and women to get married to someone of the opposite sex (or else to remain alone, in a role requiring celibacy or simply as life-long bachelor/old spinster), and to either suppress their sexual orientation or keep their actual romantic life hidden from the public eye. That's really not the case anymore. The purpose of marriage has changed, societal expectations have changed. There's absolutely no reason anymore for gay men and women to marry someone of the opposite sex. While the current view of marriage as being primarily a romantic matter, and a partnership of equals in which labour is divided in whichever way the spouses see fit, has made it entirely relevant to gay couples, and so they want it too. Makes perfect sense. And the arguments to keep it from them are based mostly on a religious view dictating that homosexuality is wrong and that apparently the religious should force their views on society. Fortunately there are also religious people who espouse the first belief while rejecting the second.
Ultimately, I think that the debate actually centers around the thought that society, by and large, should consider a homosexual partnership as valid and normal. There is a majority of people in California who disagree (for whatever reason). This isn't about rights, as none of us has a right to get married. This isn't so much about money or benefits, as none of us has a right to those either. There are all sorts of provisions in government which state "if you are in this situation, you get this benefit". If you don't qualify, you don't get it. Instead, this entire debate (in my thinking anyway) is about one aspect of American culture saying "this lifestyle is as normal as yours and you will accept that."
How so? How does the legalization of gay marriage in any way inconvenience people who disapprove of homosexuality? How does it in any way hinder their First Amendment rights of openly disapproving of homosexuality? It should be rather clear that trying to force any church to give its blessing to gay unions when that church doesn't want to, would be monumentally stupid, would be a blatant violation of the Constitution, and would never fly. And it's not like legalizing gay marriage is going to force them to have more contact with gay couples (okay, unless they happen to work for the county handing out marriage licenses...) or with homosexuality in general.
On the other side of the debate, a point that for some strange reason religious conservatives always seem to ignore: if they find marriage preferable above "living in sin" for straight couples, then why exactly is it that they don't think the same for gay couples? Sure, they disapprove of gay sex in general, but surely gay sex within a marriage is better than gay sex outside a marriage, even to those who find both abhorrent. It's not like banning gay marriage will stop any gay person from being gay or from having sex, after all.
There are many who would think "No it isn't, and no I won't." Who are you, or more specifically a judge, to force someone to accept their opinion as fact? Again...this isn't about race or gender...its about an individual's conscious decision on who to love.
When was the last time you made a conscious decision on who to love? And how well did that work out for you?
Judge rules California's ban on same-sex marriage is unconstitutional
- 04/08/2010 10:40:50 PM
1498 Views
Good news, but as the article says, it'll go all the way to the SC.
- 04/08/2010 10:55:58 PM
813 Views
So then is that how we do it?
- 04/08/2010 11:01:19 PM
952 Views
Of course.
- 04/08/2010 11:04:59 PM
844 Views
His point was
- 04/08/2010 11:40:14 PM
995 Views
Yeah but: What Ghavrel said below *NM*
- 05/08/2010 08:01:02 AM
476 Views
And again...
- 05/08/2010 06:08:56 PM
715 Views
To quote my property professor: "Can I make you think like a Californian?"
- 05/08/2010 06:39:48 PM
760 Views
I'm not the one who came up with the referendum system, you do realize.
- 04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM
834 Views
- 04/08/2010 11:11:13 PM
834 Views
The referendum system, in my opinion, has been a failure, especially in CA.
- 04/08/2010 11:46:21 PM
927 Views
democracy has been a failure in CA.
- 05/08/2010 02:42:21 PM
701 Views
No. It just shows the problems of a crazy electorate.
- 05/08/2010 03:29:21 PM
850 Views
we vote fro way to much crap in general
- 05/08/2010 02:41:19 PM
792 Views
Yes, you still have to abide by the Constitution, even if a lot of people don't like it. *NM*
- 05/08/2010 12:07:44 AM
427 Views
Amend the Constitution to alter the Fourteenth Amendment if you don't like it. *NM*
- 05/08/2010 01:09:51 AM
507 Views
just a devil's advocate position here, but....
- 05/08/2010 04:23:43 AM
879 Views
Marriage is either an economic status regulated by law or a religious institution.
- 05/08/2010 05:13:17 AM
886 Views
There are certain things that should not be decided by a vote...
- 05/08/2010 02:02:45 AM
864 Views
I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular.
- 05/08/2010 02:17:24 AM
888 Views
Re: I do agree with you on that. Hell yes, and on a subject like this in particular.
- 05/08/2010 10:46:54 AM
871 Views
I understand it.
- 05/08/2010 03:06:40 PM
867 Views
I know you don't support proposition 8
- 05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM
874 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM
886 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:29:34 PM
874 Views
- 05/08/2010 03:34:01 PM
886 Views
But that is just simplistic and silly to complain about when it is a long standing possibility
- 05/08/2010 03:46:59 PM
776 Views
Oh, ees it?
- 05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM
901 Views
- 05/08/2010 04:07:39 PM
901 Views
Well they knew the rules before they started the whole thing
- 05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM
780 Views
- 05/08/2010 04:12:33 PM
780 Views
Why would you complain if you won?
- 05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM
848 Views
- 05/08/2010 04:15:20 PM
848 Views
You could recognise that you won by the system working in a way you don't like?
- 05/08/2010 04:23:58 PM
727 Views
I'm sure that happens, in general.
- 06/08/2010 02:43:18 PM
725 Views
It seems to happen a lot nowadays
- 06/08/2010 03:06:33 PM
743 Views
It's so weird that you feel differently - there is only room for one opinion here!
- 06/08/2010 03:41:52 PM
657 Views
- 06/08/2010 03:41:52 PM
657 Views
instead it should be decided by judges who answer to no one? *NM*
- 05/08/2010 07:12:59 AM
427 Views
The same judges who upheld our private right to bear arms.
- 05/08/2010 02:09:07 PM
868 Views
not when judges stop using the Constitution
- 05/08/2010 02:30:51 PM
847 Views
Sexual preference is not the right being protected.
- 05/08/2010 03:22:04 PM
903 Views
I know that the 14th amendment is routinely used in ways it was never intended.
- 05/08/2010 05:25:07 PM
816 Views
I realize that, but it is ultimately a good thing.
- 05/08/2010 05:31:19 PM
892 Views
let's take away the citizenship of all black people if that's the way you think
- 05/08/2010 09:06:23 PM
759 Views
Come now lets not be stupid
- 06/08/2010 05:31:18 PM
711 Views
sorry but your statement was completely ignorant.
- 06/08/2010 07:27:09 PM
834 Views
I will talk as soon as you stop spouting stupid rhetoric and say something relevant
- 06/08/2010 07:54:09 PM
802 Views
Let's just be clear about which amendment is which.
- 05/08/2010 11:50:57 PM
758 Views
but that still ignores intent and expands the law in ways not intnented when it created
- 06/08/2010 04:53:43 AM
775 Views
Yes, no, no, and no.
- 06/08/2010 05:29:09 AM
828 Views
there are serious flaws in your thinking here
- 06/08/2010 06:18:13 PM
895 Views
Your assertions continue to lack support.
- 06/08/2010 07:23:17 PM
922 Views
not all you just refuse to see things you disagree with
- 06/08/2010 08:36:32 PM
883 Views
...said the pot to the kettle
- 06/08/2010 09:17:28 PM
962 Views
yes but a shiny stainless steel pot
- 09/08/2010 11:21:33 PM
1010 Views
You continue to be wrong about history and the role of courts.
- 10/08/2010 01:05:39 AM
1360 Views
If he's wrong, a lot of law scholars and Supreme Court Justices are wrong.
- 10/08/2010 01:44:05 AM
805 Views
Brown vs. Board of Education, 'nuff said. *NM*
- 10/08/2010 04:32:37 AM
425 Views
Actually, that only proves his point, if I understand correctly. *NM*
- 10/08/2010 11:11:19 AM
454 Views
part oif the problem appears to be you completely missing the point
- 10/08/2010 01:23:19 PM
1007 Views
There's a simple way to determine the degree to which that opinion is objective or subjective...
- 06/08/2010 09:32:21 PM
768 Views
Since when is marriage a right? *NM*
- 05/08/2010 04:11:16 PM
410 Views
it may not be a "right"...
- 05/08/2010 04:22:44 PM
747 Views
This is where the debate comes into play....
- 05/08/2010 05:04:08 PM
772 Views
How much would it change the debate if it was nurture, really?
- 05/08/2010 09:48:22 PM
814 Views
It's a benefit that is being extended selectively to one set of the populace.
- 05/08/2010 04:52:52 PM
831 Views
Hey, I'm single....
- 05/08/2010 05:05:41 PM
758 Views
That's a specious argument and you know it.
- 05/08/2010 05:13:17 PM
815 Views
A homosexual has every opportunity as well.....
- 05/08/2010 05:23:56 PM
768 Views
Oh quit the bullshit already.
- 05/08/2010 05:29:15 PM
1008 Views
Sorry, but what a nonsense.
- 05/08/2010 09:27:17 PM
755 Views
hey that's it, jens! you solved the WHOLE PROBLEM!!!
- 05/08/2010 11:24:29 PM
873 Views
ON TO WORLD HUNGER!
- 06/08/2010 07:59:51 AM
762 Views
LET THEM HAVE CAEK. *NM*
- 06/08/2010 02:29:56 PM
394 Views
Are you sure it's wise to feed people on a lie? *NM*
- 06/08/2010 02:34:26 PM
487 Views
People are fed lies all the time
- 06/08/2010 09:30:37 PM
746 Views
Quite so, but I don't think it's commonly a mainstay of their diet *NM*
- 06/08/2010 09:50:33 PM
434 Views
It is the only thing which is abundant enough for everyone to have some...
*NM*
- 06/08/2010 10:01:44 PM
683 Views
*NM*
- 06/08/2010 10:01:44 PM
683 Views
I invite you to read the judge's conclusions, linked again inside.
- 05/08/2010 11:43:44 PM
854 Views
Since 1948
- 06/08/2010 04:01:02 AM
988 Views
gah. can. only. see. typo. *NM*
- 06/08/2010 03:43:21 PM
391 Views
I don't see any typo...
*NM*
- 06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM
449 Views
*NM*
- 06/08/2010 04:07:18 PM
449 Views
I agree
- 05/08/2010 07:22:17 AM
815 Views
And Civil Rights lost the Democrats the South.
- 05/08/2010 03:44:56 PM
829 Views
but it was done by congress passing laws and the president signing those laws
- 05/08/2010 04:20:19 PM
772 Views
I was under the impression that the supreme court had a role in it
- 05/08/2010 04:31:51 PM
769 Views
but the court was not over turning the laws passed by congress
- 05/08/2010 05:11:06 PM
841 Views
No, like in this case, isn't it?
- 05/08/2010 05:24:19 PM
744 Views
I would say that is another case of judicial activism and shows the danger of the practice
- 05/08/2010 05:43:02 PM
734 Views
Hard to believe it's the same governor who said "Gay marriage should be between a man and a woman." *NM*
- 04/08/2010 11:05:45 PM
498 Views
Link to the full court order inside:
- 04/08/2010 11:43:29 PM
973 Views
The judge quoting Scalia in favour of gay marriage is fairly amusing.
- 04/08/2010 11:50:47 PM
821 Views
What page was that on?
- 05/08/2010 11:25:49 AM
736 Views
Nah, it was way above page 109, in the findings of fact somewhere.
- 05/08/2010 12:37:48 PM
850 Views
Oh, that is brilliant.
- 05/08/2010 01:12:21 PM
759 Views
Pretty much.
- 05/08/2010 01:44:22 PM
881 Views
I've always wondered what basis there is for banning necrophilia if "it's disgusting" is invalid.
- 05/08/2010 01:51:19 PM
831 Views
because you cannot give consent when you are dead?
- 05/08/2010 03:04:46 PM
834 Views
what if you give consent while you are still alive?
- 05/08/2010 03:21:59 PM
911 Views
Is it then illegal?
- 05/08/2010 03:23:46 PM
822 Views
given I imagine the pro-necrophilia lobby isn't strong in numbers or influence
- 05/08/2010 03:33:11 PM
895 Views
Re: given I imagine the pro-necrophilia lobby isn't strong in numbers or influence
- 05/08/2010 03:34:57 PM
935 Views
I would think it would be illegal even then
- 05/08/2010 03:34:31 PM
846 Views
Wikipedia to the rescue!
- 05/08/2010 04:20:15 PM
995 Views
you would hope the other states would cover it under improper treatmentof human remains
- 05/08/2010 07:38:59 PM
795 Views
A dead body is just an object, not a person with rights.
- 05/08/2010 03:27:08 PM
831 Views
Yes, but
- 06/08/2010 08:42:05 AM
782 Views
Absolutely not.
- 06/08/2010 03:21:14 PM
837 Views
not to mention necrophilia has a large potential to be hazardous to health.
- 06/08/2010 09:42:43 PM
927 Views
Irrelevant decision.....this was heading to SCOTUS from day 1 *NM*
- 05/08/2010 12:53:26 AM
453 Views


