Unless... what if we offered something equally perfect and infinitely valuable to make it even?
Joel Send a noteboard - 17/09/2010 05:04:39 AM
Of course, WE don't really HAVE anything; everything we've got is just on loan from that same perfection we reject. So pretty much the only way we're going to get out of this one is if we're GIVEN infinitely valuable precious weregild, too. Which we pretty much are, but the evil itself must still be expunged, hence the big deal with Communion, because in being baptized into Christs death Communion is supposed to nail human sins to the cross just as it imparts Christs divine Grace to observers. It's probably THE most superstitious thing left in the Church, because it's not far removed from ancient traditions of consuming ancestors or foes to gain part of their spirit. The rite itself, however, is, has to be largely symbolic (and narrow minded heterodoct that I am I'd have been burned at the stake for saying this 500 years ago) because it's bread and wine prepared recently SYMBOLIZING Christs body and blood in the tradition He laid out at the Last Supper. That rite and knowing submission to it can still form the basis for a very real spiritual communion with Christ as He went to the Passion, a night and day of torment, crucifixion, death and resurrection.
That's not really about Hell so much as how you get there though, and, far more importantly, how you don't: Since the sin is infinitely great, and since God isn't just good but PERFECT, the sin cannot be allowed to BE, even if God were a machine. And "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" so we're screwed. Unless you can honestly say that statement doesn't apply to you, any version of God is going to have a problem with you.
He's got another problem though: Divine mercy. That's absolute, too, after all; it's a divine attribute, so it has to be. He loves all creation, that's why He made it, and earnestly strives with all His omnipotence for its happiness and well being. Of course, there's this evil thing that keeps getting in the way, but He can't just ANNIHILATE all those parts of His beloved creation that went bad on Him, right? I mean, "God is love" or there would BE no creation to feel and share His love, and if His love is as absolute as everything else, He must love creation as much as Himself.
Which is the logic that resolves the absolute love/justice dilemma: God, despite being perfect, comes as one of us in the flesh, takes on the price of our sins and carries it to its fullest at the cross while remaining perfect; His death is SOLELY for our sins, and only enough BECAUSE He is perfect and divine. Of course, then you get into the Trinity and "first Adam" vs. "second Adam" and it gets complicated, but that's the core of it.
That's not really about Hell so much as how you get there though, and, far more importantly, how you don't: Since the sin is infinitely great, and since God isn't just good but PERFECT, the sin cannot be allowed to BE, even if God were a machine. And "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" so we're screwed. Unless you can honestly say that statement doesn't apply to you, any version of God is going to have a problem with you.
He's got another problem though: Divine mercy. That's absolute, too, after all; it's a divine attribute, so it has to be. He loves all creation, that's why He made it, and earnestly strives with all His omnipotence for its happiness and well being. Of course, there's this evil thing that keeps getting in the way, but He can't just ANNIHILATE all those parts of His beloved creation that went bad on Him, right? I mean, "God is love" or there would BE no creation to feel and share His love, and if His love is as absolute as everything else, He must love creation as much as Himself.
Which is the logic that resolves the absolute love/justice dilemma: God, despite being perfect, comes as one of us in the flesh, takes on the price of our sins and carries it to its fullest at the cross while remaining perfect; His death is SOLELY for our sins, and only enough BECAUSE He is perfect and divine. Of course, then you get into the Trinity and "first Adam" vs. "second Adam" and it gets complicated, but that's the core of it.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
So how do you define "Hell"? (*Edit with extra question.)
- 01/09/2010 09:27:29 PM
1590 Views
small townish.
- 01/09/2010 09:33:18 PM
1175 Views
endless loops of reality TV, soft rock, and New Age music *NM*
- 01/09/2010 09:35:20 PM
514 Views
Hell, per Phelix...
- 01/09/2010 09:44:32 PM
1134 Views
Outliving the people you love. *NM*
- 01/09/2010 10:03:28 PM
591 Views
France.
- 01/09/2010 10:03:55 PM
1167 Views
That doesn't make sense
- 01/09/2010 10:17:36 PM
988 Views
I realise German food isn't great
- 01/09/2010 10:25:31 PM
1067 Views
Mmmmmmmm...
- 01/09/2010 10:50:41 PM
1080 Views
You people need a letter limit.
- 02/09/2010 02:35:10 AM
956 Views
I believe in Germany there is a word for that
- 02/09/2010 10:32:13 AM
1179 Views
But with more ch's and some cute little dots over the vowels. *NM*
- 02/09/2010 09:13:36 PM
567 Views
.... for that?? *NM*
- 02/09/2010 05:43:48 PM
668 Views
We should reconsider if the retirement home we picked for her in Wales is the right place *NM*
- 03/09/2010 08:38:13 AM
702 Views
You are Welsh now?
- 03/09/2010 11:41:05 AM
1096 Views
- 03/09/2010 11:41:05 AM
1096 Views
And British weather? *NM*
- 01/09/2010 10:18:31 PM
561 Views
Our weather is a talking point
*NM*
- 01/09/2010 10:25:52 PM
640 Views
*NM*
- 01/09/2010 10:25:52 PM
640 Views
Yes, but when it's the French doing the talking... you see where I'm going with this? *NM*
- 01/09/2010 10:27:50 PM
616 Views
Which is why the English are considered boring.
*NM*
- 01/09/2010 11:18:41 PM
557 Views
*NM*
- 01/09/2010 11:18:41 PM
557 Views
It isn't our fault people haven't experienced our weather
*NM*
- 01/09/2010 11:22:56 PM
709 Views
*NM*
- 01/09/2010 11:22:56 PM
709 Views
Does it ever actually change? I thought it was foggy, overcast and damp constantly.
- 01/09/2010 11:27:36 PM
1025 Views
People in Seattle have. *NM*
- 02/09/2010 12:02:14 AM
687 Views
I actually envision it...
- 01/09/2010 10:22:16 PM
1205 Views
jaw-pain is that bad then?
- 01/09/2010 10:32:18 PM
1056 Views
you see how much Tashy has changed....
- 01/09/2010 10:54:59 PM
1251 Views
So does anybody here actually envision it as burning in fire and brimstone? I have been told that
- 01/09/2010 11:25:15 PM
995 Views
no
- 02/09/2010 03:39:38 AM
947 Views
If you want to know what death is like you experience it every night when you sleep.
- 06/09/2010 04:37:41 AM
1059 Views
I don't believe in Hell. At least not an eternal one.
- 01/09/2010 11:55:02 PM
1233 Views
One of my favorite jokes is along those lines...
- 02/09/2010 12:37:18 AM
1090 Views
Hee! Reminds me of Bishop Gene Robinson.
- 02/09/2010 12:45:24 AM
899 Views
I love most of the words that come from Gene's mouth.
- 02/09/2010 12:48:24 AM
1201 Views
- 02/09/2010 12:48:24 AM
1201 Views
I got to have dinner with him. Sat at his table! He's so funny.
- 02/09/2010 01:00:23 AM
971 Views
A full wotmania chat with no ignore, no logout button and none of your friends present. *NM*
- 02/09/2010 12:04:18 AM
634 Views
A bar with limitless free whiskey where one is unable to become drunk.
- 02/09/2010 12:28:17 AM
995 Views
That's a great question, but I don't really think anything about it.
- 02/09/2010 02:39:35 AM
1127 Views
I don't know but if they have 3G I will NB you a description when I get there *NM*
- 02/09/2010 03:40:04 AM
553 Views
If there is such a thing
- 02/09/2010 04:39:26 AM
1327 Views
No kidding.
- 02/09/2010 04:49:38 AM
1072 Views
I agree
- 02/09/2010 05:03:32 AM
1120 Views
hmmm. although all that assumes a humanity of your soul in heaven.
- 02/09/2010 05:14:33 AM
993 Views
See - that's one of those personal things
- 02/09/2010 02:55:34 PM
1310 Views
*shrug* it doesn't mean you aren't you.
- 02/09/2010 03:26:56 PM
1269 Views
I liked Sartre's take on it. *NM*
- 02/09/2010 02:57:38 PM
632 Views
What is that? "Hell is other people at breakfast"? *NM*
- 02/09/2010 07:11:59 PM
519 Views
I'm not sure where the "at breakfast" comes from
- 02/09/2010 07:39:26 PM
956 Views
It has just been added on since then because it is so true and funny.
- 03/09/2010 05:16:43 AM
1082 Views
- 03/09/2010 05:16:43 AM
1082 Views
Not simple, but I'll keep it very short
- 02/09/2010 03:42:29 PM
1116 Views
so everyone goes to hell? *NM*
- 02/09/2010 04:33:05 PM
658 Views
That seems to be the conclusion if one agrees with my premises and line of thought, yes. *NM*
- 02/09/2010 04:43:34 PM
456 Views
hmm.
- 02/09/2010 05:23:23 PM
1157 Views
That is what it should so...
- 02/09/2010 05:26:04 PM
1051 Views
Unless... what if we offered something equally perfect and infinitely valuable to make it even?
- 17/09/2010 05:04:39 AM
1139 Views
Eternal separation from the Creator. God'll give some what they wanted, but they won't like it. *NM*
- 03/09/2010 05:53:57 PM
664 Views
As far as Hell itself, this.
- 17/09/2010 05:08:02 AM
1111 Views
Your God sounds like a sadist.
- 17/09/2010 05:12:17 AM
1255 Views
There's one HUGE string attached:
- 17/09/2010 05:29:24 AM
1221 Views
I have videoclips to answer that question.
- 27/09/2010 05:02:17 PM
1108 Views
- 27/09/2010 05:02:17 PM
1108 Views
You have reminded me why I need to see that film again
- 27/09/2010 05:55:13 PM
1243 Views
You could use at least one of the URLs in our link option, ya know?
- 28/09/2010 04:16:07 PM
1047 Views
- 28/09/2010 04:16:07 PM
1047 Views

*NM*
