Active Users:340 Time:12/07/2025 05:21:35 PM
Unless... what if we offered something equally perfect and infinitely valuable to make it even? Joel Send a noteboard - 17/09/2010 05:04:39 AM
Of course, WE don't really HAVE anything; everything we've got is just on loan from that same perfection we reject. So pretty much the only way we're going to get out of this one is if we're GIVEN infinitely valuable precious weregild, too. Which we pretty much are, but the evil itself must still be expunged, hence the big deal with Communion, because in being baptized into Christs death Communion is supposed to nail human sins to the cross just as it imparts Christs divine Grace to observers. It's probably THE most superstitious thing left in the Church, because it's not far removed from ancient traditions of consuming ancestors or foes to gain part of their spirit. The rite itself, however, is, has to be largely symbolic (and narrow minded heterodoct that I am I'd have been burned at the stake for saying this 500 years ago) because it's bread and wine prepared recently SYMBOLIZING Christs body and blood in the tradition He laid out at the Last Supper. That rite and knowing submission to it can still form the basis for a very real spiritual communion with Christ as He went to the Passion, a night and day of torment, crucifixion, death and resurrection.

That's not really about Hell so much as how you get there though, and, far more importantly, how you don't: Since the sin is infinitely great, and since God isn't just good but PERFECT, the sin cannot be allowed to BE, even if God were a machine. And "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" so we're screwed. Unless you can honestly say that statement doesn't apply to you, any version of God is going to have a problem with you.

He's got another problem though: Divine mercy. That's absolute, too, after all; it's a divine attribute, so it has to be. He loves all creation, that's why He made it, and earnestly strives with all His omnipotence for its happiness and well being. Of course, there's this evil thing that keeps getting in the way, but He can't just ANNIHILATE all those parts of His beloved creation that went bad on Him, right? I mean, "God is love" or there would BE no creation to feel and share His love, and if His love is as absolute as everything else, He must love creation as much as Himself.

Which is the logic that resolves the absolute love/justice dilemma: God, despite being perfect, comes as one of us in the flesh, takes on the price of our sins and carries it to its fullest at the cross while remaining perfect; His death is SOLELY for our sins, and only enough BECAUSE He is perfect and divine. Of course, then you get into the Trinity and "first Adam" vs. "second Adam" and it gets complicated, but that's the core of it.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
So how do you define "Hell"? (*Edit with extra question.) - 01/09/2010 09:27:29 PM 1451 Views
small townish. - 01/09/2010 09:33:18 PM 943 Views
Hell actually is a small town. - 06/09/2010 07:43:05 AM 962 Views
No, it is in Norway. *NM* - 18/09/2010 01:31:26 PM 518 Views
endless loops of reality TV, soft rock, and New Age music *NM* - 01/09/2010 09:35:20 PM 461 Views
*shudder* *NM* - 01/09/2010 09:36:39 PM 553 Views
that's right... - 01/09/2010 09:50:01 PM 973 Views
I completely agree. *NM* - 01/09/2010 11:16:18 PM 498 Views
that is evil. just horrid. *NM* - 02/09/2010 01:40:31 AM 541 Views
Hell, per Phelix... - 01/09/2010 09:44:32 PM 1004 Views
I was going to reply to Tash's question ... - 01/09/2010 09:58:25 PM 925 Views
High five! - 01/09/2010 11:35:53 PM 930 Views
My office. - 01/09/2010 09:53:44 PM 932 Views
Outliving the people you love. *NM* - 01/09/2010 10:03:28 PM 533 Views
that's really quite sad. *NM* - 02/09/2010 01:41:18 AM 514 Views
Well if it's not you, then it's them - 02/09/2010 02:52:58 AM 857 Views
burying your children *NM* - 02/09/2010 03:27:29 AM 634 Views
Exactly - 02/09/2010 08:20:28 AM 965 Views
France. - 01/09/2010 10:03:55 PM 1041 Views
oooh... - 01/09/2010 10:07:54 PM 982 Views
EVEN WORSE....with ICELANDIC FOOD!!! *NM* - 01/09/2010 10:08:51 PM 532 Views
That doesn't make sense - 01/09/2010 10:17:36 PM 859 Views
I realise German food isn't great - 01/09/2010 10:25:31 PM 950 Views
Mmmmmmmm... - 01/09/2010 10:50:41 PM 960 Views
delicious any way you say it *NM* - 02/09/2010 01:21:53 AM 898 Views
You people need a letter limit. - 02/09/2010 02:35:10 AM 833 Views
You people need a longer attention span *NM* - 02/09/2010 08:22:12 AM 534 Views
I believe in Germany there is a word for that - 02/09/2010 10:32:13 AM 934 Views
But with more ch's and some cute little dots over the vowels. *NM* - 02/09/2010 09:13:36 PM 446 Views
.... for that?? *NM* - 02/09/2010 05:43:48 PM 522 Views
We should reconsider if the retirement home we picked for her in Wales is the right place *NM* - 03/09/2010 08:38:13 AM 568 Views
You are Welsh now? - 03/09/2010 11:41:05 AM 962 Views
No but they got even longer words than we do! *NM* - 03/09/2010 11:44:49 AM 498 Views
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch? - 03/09/2010 01:00:58 PM 869 Views
If there is one thing americans know about German food it is... - 06/09/2010 04:32:41 AM 1019 Views
Bratwurst is fucking awesome *NM* - 06/09/2010 07:22:28 PM 535 Views
And British weather? *NM* - 01/09/2010 10:18:31 PM 506 Views
Our weather is a talking point *NM* - 01/09/2010 10:25:52 PM 482 Views
Yes, but when it's the French doing the talking... you see where I'm going with this? *NM* - 01/09/2010 10:27:50 PM 561 Views
touche? *NM* - 01/09/2010 10:29:48 PM 540 Views
Which is why the English are considered boring. *NM* - 01/09/2010 11:18:41 PM 478 Views
It isn't our fault people haven't experienced our weather *NM* - 01/09/2010 11:22:56 PM 576 Views
Does it ever actually change? I thought it was foggy, overcast and damp constantly. - 01/09/2010 11:27:36 PM 913 Views
It is all about timing - 01/09/2010 11:30:14 PM 988 Views
People in Seattle have. *NM* - 02/09/2010 12:02:14 AM 546 Views
True dat. - 02/09/2010 12:32:22 AM 811 Views
This last time I couldn't get used to it. - 17/09/2010 05:36:03 AM 1076 Views
That's because nobody want to experience you weather! *NM* - 06/09/2010 04:33:29 AM 524 Views
I actually envision it... - 01/09/2010 10:22:16 PM 1062 Views
jaw-pain is that bad then? - 01/09/2010 10:32:18 PM 937 Views
*shrug* - 01/09/2010 10:49:37 PM 1042 Views
oh i'm sure...but hell-levels of pain? - 02/09/2010 12:59:52 AM 948 Views
- 01/09/2010 10:47:25 PM 959 Views
you see how much Tashy has changed.... - 01/09/2010 10:54:59 PM 1050 Views
Hehe. Good one, Mook. *NM* - 01/09/2010 11:20:35 PM 525 Views
Wrong place. *NM* - 01/09/2010 11:22:52 PM 544 Views
So does anybody here actually envision it as burning in fire and brimstone? I have been told that - 01/09/2010 11:25:15 PM 772 Views
See, most people mis-define "hell." - 01/09/2010 11:33:30 PM 922 Views
Yet Christ speaks of it the same way. - 17/09/2010 05:17:57 AM 848 Views
no - 02/09/2010 03:39:38 AM 821 Views
If you want to know what death is like you experience it every night when you sleep. - 06/09/2010 04:37:41 AM 935 Views
exactly *NM* - 06/09/2010 03:16:24 PM 526 Views
Certainly not. *NM* - 02/09/2010 09:50:19 AM 494 Views
I don't believe in Hell. At least not an eternal one. - 01/09/2010 11:55:02 PM 1105 Views
One of my favorite jokes is along those lines... - 02/09/2010 12:37:18 AM 969 Views
Hee! Reminds me of Bishop Gene Robinson. - 02/09/2010 12:45:24 AM 769 Views
I love most of the words that come from Gene's mouth. - 02/09/2010 12:48:24 AM 978 Views
I got to have dinner with him. Sat at his table! He's so funny. - 02/09/2010 01:00:23 AM 855 Views
You realize my envy level just shot through the roof. - 02/09/2010 01:02:06 AM 973 Views
I know. - 02/09/2010 01:11:25 AM 994 Views
A full wotmania chat with no ignore, no logout button and none of your friends present. *NM* - 02/09/2010 12:04:18 AM 487 Views
This. *NM* - 02/09/2010 07:49:56 PM 540 Views
I don't believe in hell. *NM* - 02/09/2010 07:50:39 PM 510 Views
That task is beyond my pay grade *NM* - 02/09/2010 01:27:49 AM 518 Views
Hell is the Absence of God. - 02/09/2010 03:12:12 AM 848 Views
I don't know but if they have 3G I will NB you a description when I get there *NM* - 02/09/2010 03:40:04 AM 487 Views
hell has 3G but no signal... - 02/09/2010 03:43:11 AM 846 Views
If there is such a thing - 02/09/2010 04:39:26 AM 1109 Views
No kidding. - 02/09/2010 04:49:38 AM 931 Views
I agree - 02/09/2010 05:03:32 AM 1000 Views
hmmm. although all that assumes a humanity of your soul in heaven. - 02/09/2010 05:14:33 AM 764 Views
See - that's one of those personal things - 02/09/2010 02:55:34 PM 975 Views
*shrug* it doesn't mean you aren't you. - 02/09/2010 03:26:56 PM 1032 Views
Perhaps so - 02/09/2010 05:24:33 PM 948 Views
I don't think that is off topic. Feel free to continue. *NM* - 02/09/2010 07:08:54 PM 438 Views
No, but thanks for extending the offer - 03/09/2010 04:32:31 AM 891 Views
I liked Sartre's take on it. *NM* - 02/09/2010 02:57:38 PM 485 Views
What is that? "Hell is other people at breakfast"? *NM* - 02/09/2010 07:11:59 PM 456 Views
I'm not sure where the "at breakfast" comes from - 02/09/2010 07:39:26 PM 750 Views
Not simple, but I'll keep it very short - 02/09/2010 03:42:29 PM 945 Views
so everyone goes to hell? *NM* - 02/09/2010 04:33:05 PM 504 Views
That seems to be the conclusion if one agrees with my premises and line of thought, yes. *NM* - 02/09/2010 04:43:34 PM 398 Views
hmm. - 02/09/2010 05:23:23 PM 935 Views
That is what it should so... - 02/09/2010 05:26:04 PM 834 Views
INB4 PERFECT SACRIFICE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD *NM* - 02/09/2010 08:44:33 PM 508 Views
Exaclty where I wanted to go! - 02/09/2010 08:59:55 PM 927 Views
Unless... what if we offered something equally perfect and infinitely valuable to make it even? - 17/09/2010 05:04:39 AM 914 Views
...arrgh. *NM* - 18/09/2010 06:28:29 AM 480 Views
The time when one's responsibilities become Real. *NM* - 02/09/2010 10:09:11 PM 493 Views
Eternal separation from the Creator. God'll give some what they wanted, but they won't like it. *NM* - 03/09/2010 05:53:57 PM 593 Views
As far as Hell itself, this. - 17/09/2010 05:08:02 AM 880 Views
Your God sounds like a sadist. - 17/09/2010 05:12:17 AM 1133 Views
There's one HUGE string attached: - 17/09/2010 05:29:24 AM 1006 Views
- 17/09/2010 03:39:20 PM 890 Views
I promised Tash weeks ago I'd respond when I could. - 18/09/2010 12:25:11 AM 803 Views
I don't get it. - 18/09/2010 06:31:33 AM 985 Views
My answer is the same as last time. I don't believe in hell. - 17/09/2010 03:37:30 PM 910 Views
I have videoclips to answer that question. - 27/09/2010 05:02:17 PM 993 Views
Also there's a very appropriate song! - 27/09/2010 05:13:14 PM 908 Views
You have reminded me why I need to see that film again - 27/09/2010 05:55:13 PM 1018 Views
Tim didn't just dislike it, he said it was dumb. - 27/09/2010 08:17:07 PM 1136 Views
Shocking - 27/09/2010 08:18:47 PM 1125 Views
You could use at least one of the URLs in our link option, ya know? - 28/09/2010 04:16:07 PM 909 Views
I CARE NOT A WHIT FOR YOUR LAZY WAYS, GERMAN. *NM* - 28/09/2010 05:31:39 PM 438 Views

Reply to Message