Active Users:445 Time:18/09/2025 08:57:37 PM
Actually, that first line is my problem with Universalism Joel Send a noteboard - 28/01/2011 01:54:00 AM
Your post really only makes sense if you treat our time on earth as utter dross before the total end goal of creation, which is heaven. That's one of the obvious (and damaging) end results of damnation-based thinking, to my mind.

Might not be post-mortem. Maybe there will be reincarnation. I kind of like that idea (I also am enjoying imagining you twitch/squirm/roll your eyes as you read that ).

In any case, the reason I preach and live the Gospel is because I think it enhances the value of human existence. If you think the Gospel's only virtue is that it contains all things necessary for salvation, well, that's sad. And surprising, to be honest. I don't think that's what you believe, though.

If all roads lead to eternal and complete communion with God, the rather limited and comparatively brief time we spend here is trivial to the point of insignificance. In terms of "damage" if all roads DON'T lead to eternal and complete communion with God what we do here and now has great bearing on whether we receive that communion for eternity, or something else altogether. As for reincarnation, it is, by definition, post mortem so, meh.

No, I don't think the gospels only value is that it contains all that's necessary for salvation. I do, however, think its chief value lies in testifying the glory of God, and containing all that's necessary for salvation the chief way it does so. At its heart, the gospel is about God doing the impossible, sacrificing Himself in the carnal flesh to satisfy the dual demands of Absolute Love and Absolute Justice, neither of which he can deny and BE God. Salvation is undeniably involved in that, it's the fullest expression of Gods inestimable glory and the reason I think sin was allowed to come into being, but it remains very much a God centered thing to which man is subordinate.

The relationship with God Roland mentioned above is likewise about man not only accepting but rejoicing in that, but it also means that what we do now has lasting value in the hereafter rather than being a mere collection of things that God will "fix" or not as needed. We can take works out if it entirely if you like; I think they remain quite significant, but we can set that aside for the nonce: If nothing else the here and now matter because it is here and now that we have the opportunity to choose a relationship with God for His sake rather than our own, because it is right and pleasing to Him rather than on the basis of what we have to gain or lose and without being confronted with undeniable proof we literally cannot exist without Him. That's my ultimate problem with Universalism, the idea that once a person is shown his place in creation and sees his own need for God he'll inevitably accept it; not only do I dispute that that's always the case, else real free will would be impossible, but far more importantly it's not acting from love for God, but rather enlightened self interest.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
Ted Haggard Would Be Bisexual If He Was a Hot 21-Year-Old - 27/01/2011 05:01:12 PM 1385 Views
OK *NM* - 27/01/2011 06:10:10 PM 557 Views
Not sure what the point of this post was *NM* - 27/01/2011 06:50:59 PM 520 Views
It was something that made me laugh? - 27/01/2011 06:53:09 PM 901 Views
yeah you were only insulting people's religion, no reason to get worked up. *NM* - 27/01/2011 09:24:55 PM 526 Views
Er, pretty sure just laughing at what one guy said, plus a pun on the word "hard" - 27/01/2011 09:40:29 PM 834 Views
I am an athiest so I don't care - 27/01/2011 10:10:26 PM 892 Views
Re: I am an athiest so I don't care - 27/01/2011 11:10:21 PM 861 Views
bullshit - 28/01/2011 03:54:41 PM 1095 Views
Moron. *NM* - 29/01/2011 03:48:35 PM 483 Views
Well put. - 29/01/2011 04:48:00 PM 1186 Views
Or he'd still be closeted because of twisted, hateful strains of Christianity. *NM* - 27/01/2011 06:56:04 PM 424 Views
If your religion states homosexuality is wrong, then it is a position of principle... - 27/01/2011 06:59:04 PM 961 Views
Wow, you really don't understand what it is to be human - 27/01/2011 08:51:17 PM 875 Views
I'm sure you'll agree that a religious debate is not really called for here... - 27/01/2011 09:10:38 PM 919 Views
Homosexuality =/= homosexual sex. - 27/01/2011 09:16:50 PM 843 Views
Err...no. - 27/01/2011 09:23:54 PM 1096 Views
Re: Err...no. - 27/01/2011 09:42:00 PM 1031 Views
You seem to want to argue about what is allowed and what is not allowed... - 27/01/2011 10:08:10 PM 912 Views
So I am curious on your thoughts of Matthew 5:28 *NM* - 27/01/2011 10:30:50 PM 454 Views
What about it? - 28/01/2011 03:26:19 PM 933 Views
not really - 27/01/2011 10:15:32 PM 1099 Views
I completely and utterly disagree - 27/01/2011 10:39:10 PM 844 Views
Replace "Christian Faith" with "hardcore Calvinism" and I'll go away. - 28/01/2011 12:35:36 AM 807 Views
Brush up on your Romans and Corinthians - 28/01/2011 03:30:24 PM 1227 Views
I think that covered it pretty well. - 27/01/2011 11:23:13 PM 965 Views
Is it possible to have faith, but not agree with your church's stance on subjects?. *NM* - 27/01/2011 09:15:14 PM 476 Views
Of course. Faith is a broad concept. But... - 27/01/2011 09:20:54 PM 989 Views
Absolutely. - 27/01/2011 11:17:19 PM 773 Views
Nicely said *NM* - 27/01/2011 11:19:54 PM 476 Views
Agreed. - 28/01/2011 12:26:38 AM 813 Views
Re: Agreed. - 28/01/2011 01:48:22 AM 971 Views
Well, at least you're not disputing the nature of my claim. - 27/01/2011 10:23:24 PM 852 Views
I thought acceptance meant rejecting anything with which you're uncomfortable? - 27/01/2011 11:39:48 PM 985 Views
Don't even know what that means. - 28/01/2011 12:31:23 AM 770 Views
Actually, that first line is my problem with Universalism - 28/01/2011 01:54:00 AM 963 Views
"Carnal flesh" is redundant, you know. - 28/01/2011 04:27:30 AM 838 Views
Point of emphasis. - 28/01/2011 05:52:28 AM 942 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 28/01/2011 06:33:55 AM 450 Views
...I can't believe of the three posts, this is the only one with replies - 27/01/2011 09:48:14 PM 773 Views
I read it, if that's any consolation. *NM* - 27/01/2011 10:00:31 PM 529 Views
It is nothing new, there are always people "who protest too much" - 27/01/2011 10:26:49 PM 816 Views
TAHT'S BECAUSE IT'S GAAAAAAAAAAAAY. *NM* - 27/01/2011 11:01:15 PM 484 Views
I thought that was quite humorous - 27/01/2011 11:38:31 PM 896 Views

Reply to Message