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It certainly doesn't mean you can't make conclusions. Tom Send a noteboard - 12/04/2011 08:09:41 PM
For me, there are certain experiences that cannot be adequately explained through a traditional understanding of space, time, life and death. The fact that we are unable to measure them does not mean they are not affecting us. An (admittedly imperfect) analogy would be a blind person unable to prove the sun exists. Yes, he can step outside and feel warmth, but he can do that on cloudy days or even at night in the summer.

I realize that of course the sun is easier to measure and quantify, but that is perhaps because there are plenty of people who aren't blind. Imagine, however, a force that none of us are able to sense well, but that some people sense in little isolated instances. Measuring this force would be difficult because observation would not be consistent enough.

Taking this sense that people have of the divine and writing "conclusive" books about these experiences is sheer folly and leads to the oppression of religious dogma. On the other hand...how do I explain the dreams that come true? My friend continues to tell people how I told him, in the Summer of 2001, that he should move out of downtown NY because I dreamt of a major terrorist attack and told him about it. Why did I tell him in the first place? Because I had a dream, exactly one week before the event, that detailed a friend's fatal car accident, down to the road, the weather conditions, and the fact that the friend had been secretly dating another friend of mine. I told my friend living downtown about this dream and he said, "Tell me if you ever dream about something that could affect me." I also dreamed, a few months before it happened, that I was standing in Manhattan and looking at the river and a plane was floating down it. I told my friends about this one, and when that plane landed in the Hudson my friends looked at me.

Is that evidence of God? Certainly not, at least not in a scientific sense. Do I feel that there is "something" that is going on that I can't fully appreciate? Certainly. Additional anecdotal evidence through history shows that I am not alone in seeing dreams as having some sort of meaning.

I'm not ready to draw specific conclusions, but I'm very interested in attempts to investigate, in a serious manner, these sorts of "spiritual" events.

Of course, the only reason I wouldn't recommend going from agnostic to atheist is that it's a bit depressing. However, it's certainly a reasonable step if you're that convinced. Just don't let your conviction close your eyes to anomalies in the world around you!
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 03:06:54 AM 2301 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 03:23:00 AM 1275 Views
All right. - 12/04/2011 05:50:08 AM 1253 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 06:27:14 AM 1234 Views
It would really depend on the mechanism - 12/04/2011 06:28:24 AM 1117 Views
You assume we all know, and agree on, what "soul" means. - 12/04/2011 08:42:47 AM 1147 Views
It is what hope, which is a thing with feathers, perches on. - 12/04/2011 07:32:07 PM 1229 Views
But seriously, what does it do? - 12/04/2011 11:01:58 PM 1213 Views
It makes poems pretty. - 13/04/2011 07:00:03 PM 1224 Views
Re: Yeah, exactly. - 15/04/2011 02:43:24 AM 1194 Views
Just going off the 'reborn' thing.. - 12/04/2011 08:53:28 AM 1123 Views
Hm. - 12/04/2011 03:22:01 PM 1232 Views
Agreed. - 12/04/2011 05:49:11 PM 1094 Views
it wouldn't change much for me, but I'm pretty flexible in my spiritual beliefs - 12/04/2011 04:23:34 PM 1249 Views
This. *NM* - 13/04/2011 04:15:11 PM 647 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 05:44:53 PM 1318 Views
What a fantasy. - 12/04/2011 07:57:38 PM 1177 Views
What happened to two? *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:20:41 PM 666 Views
Thanks, I fixed it. *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:29:20 PM 662 Views
Your comments, or mine? - 13/04/2011 01:24:53 AM 1642 Views
You get one guess. - 13/04/2011 07:09:01 PM 1367 Views
One dismissive answer deserves another. - 24/04/2011 12:54:44 AM 1252 Views
I'm a Christian who is partial to reincarnation, so I do not think much would change. - 12/04/2011 06:21:36 PM 1195 Views
*is disappointed* *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:01:05 PM 586 Views
You'd be surprised how frequently I get that from both sides. - 12/04/2011 08:22:24 PM 1173 Views
I bet you do! - 12/04/2011 08:47:59 PM 1146 Views
Re: I bet you do! - 13/04/2011 04:02:07 AM 1155 Views
Does it really? - 24/04/2011 01:09:34 AM 1072 Views
OMG! - 14/04/2011 06:19:50 PM 1166 Views
Go expand his worldview. *NM* - 14/04/2011 06:56:03 PM 610 Views
I think we are similar in some respects philosophically. - 13/04/2011 05:59:38 AM 1127 Views
Who says.... - 13/04/2011 07:11:24 PM 1093 Views
So then my question is.... - 13/04/2011 07:08:42 PM 1080 Views
Because I believe that Jesus was an incarnation of the λόγος. - 14/04/2011 12:36:36 AM 1119 Views
*heh* - 14/04/2011 04:12:32 PM 1224 Views
I think I answered it pretty clearly in my post title. *NM* - 14/04/2011 06:59:47 PM 666 Views
Actually, you didn't. - 15/04/2011 12:12:42 AM 1193 Views
Re: Actually, you didn't. - 24/04/2011 09:04:04 AM 1168 Views
I think that, like a lot of other people responding, I would want and need more information. - 12/04/2011 07:13:14 PM 1126 Views
Speaking of the agnostic/atheist thing - 12/04/2011 07:40:04 PM 1190 Views
99% that there is no God... - 12/04/2011 08:08:42 PM 1218 Views
Technically, no, atheists simply lack belief in a God. - 12/04/2011 08:19:15 PM 1164 Views
Whoah there, - 12/04/2011 08:26:43 PM 1133 Views
Okay, I have to admit I wasn't expecting to get called out on that. - 13/04/2011 04:03:08 AM 1236 Views
no I think that's just the literal definition... - 12/04/2011 11:19:18 PM 1070 Views
Isn't that what "technically" would imply? - 13/04/2011 04:04:42 AM 1275 Views
It certainly doesn't mean you can't make conclusions. - 12/04/2011 08:09:41 PM 1260 Views
Re: Campbell: - 12/04/2011 08:42:09 PM 1236 Views
Self-identification is an interesting point here. - 12/04/2011 09:00:46 PM 1181 Views
Re: Agree - 12/04/2011 09:22:22 PM 1188 Views
Answers. - 12/04/2011 09:05:38 PM 1121 Views
That's not a compelling counter-argument for me. - 12/04/2011 11:22:21 PM 1313 Views
Never mind. - 12/04/2011 11:34:46 PM 1105 Views
be sure to post if it does happen *NM* - 12/04/2011 11:56:17 PM 603 Views
Have you had any vivid dreams that came true? - 13/04/2011 01:16:59 AM 1068 Views
My mom used to have dreams like that, usually about relatives. - 13/04/2011 02:25:45 AM 1267 Views
I can easily believe that. - 13/04/2011 06:14:51 AM 1089 Views
Minivans can fit lots of useful stuffs, like furniture. *NM* - 13/04/2011 03:47:04 PM 661 Views
So can gas-guzzling SUVs, and full trucks. *NM* - 13/04/2011 05:13:20 PM 617 Views
for that matter, you can fit a surprising amount even in a baby truck! *NM* - 13/04/2011 06:36:58 PM 596 Views
I'd find it quite comforting - 12/04/2011 07:40:09 PM 1109 Views
Well, as I said in my census form on Sunday - 12/04/2011 08:36:05 PM 1262 Views
Pythagoras was a total nut. - 12/04/2011 10:05:42 PM 1220 Views
True - 12/04/2011 10:13:43 PM 1115 Views
It would upset my belief in science - 12/04/2011 09:39:39 PM 1270 Views
There's so much wrong with that statement. - 12/04/2011 09:55:45 PM 1259 Views
If science proved there really was an Easter Bunny would it affect your believe in science? *NM* - 12/04/2011 10:30:09 PM 708 Views
*is both bored and annoyed* - 12/04/2011 11:03:10 PM 1134 Views
right. - 12/04/2011 11:18:31 PM 1332 Views
and what if science proved that science was false? - 12/04/2011 11:48:32 PM 1220 Views
I think that's kind of the point; it can't. - 13/04/2011 01:33:44 AM 1083 Views
Did you read my original post? - 13/04/2011 03:13:34 AM 1047 Views
I did, yes. - 13/04/2011 03:32:18 AM 1084 Views
Yes it would upset my belief in science, why is that so hard to accept - 13/04/2011 01:56:59 PM 1206 Views
What's a soul? - 12/04/2011 10:51:39 PM 1112 Views
I can only give you my personal take. - 13/04/2011 01:47:39 AM 1235 Views
so did this guy took a railroad spike through the head - 13/04/2011 01:58:52 PM 1266 Views
Nah, he just got someone else's added to him. But now Ruin can influence him. *NM* - 13/04/2011 06:38:31 PM 666 Views
Thanks a lot - 13/04/2011 07:02:29 PM 1117 Views
No. - 23/04/2011 09:15:16 PM 1132 Views
but we know personality can be draticaly altered by physical means - 24/04/2011 03:28:36 AM 1457 Views
"We" don't know that; that's the problem. - 24/04/2011 07:02:49 AM 1283 Views
Can one have an identity without memory? *NM* - 13/04/2011 03:46:16 PM 630 Views
Sure. - 23/04/2011 08:53:51 PM 953 Views
Re: My question about souls: who will save your souuuuls? *NM* - 13/04/2011 04:04:21 AM 633 Views
I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space - 13/04/2011 04:00:51 PM 1115 Views
Re: I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space - 14/04/2011 03:29:55 AM 1202 Views
Sorry :-) - 14/04/2011 10:15:30 AM 1198 Views
Interesting concept.... - 13/04/2011 07:28:42 PM 1110 Views
Heh. Loose faith. - 14/04/2011 02:32:27 AM 1098 Views
It kinda still works though....doesn't it? - 14/04/2011 04:14:19 PM 1119 Views
it does work. well in fact! *NM* - 24/04/2011 03:24:25 AM 629 Views
Oooh... - 14/04/2011 04:31:30 AM 1174 Views
Who says..... - 14/04/2011 04:26:31 PM 1238 Views
Wow, thanks for all the responses!! - 14/04/2011 03:42:38 AM 1266 Views

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