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Taking things at face value is usually unwise, but the face value can still be correct. Joel Send a noteboard - 24/04/2011 12:11:51 AM
The problems that I have begin when I am asked to believe every word of a collection of books written by various people at various times. To err is human, even if one is divinely inspired to write. Not only that, but essentially the Roman Empire determined what books would be included in canon and what books wouldn't. Sure, Athanasius of Alexandria came up with the list originally, but it was given an imprimatur by the Empire.

I won't go as far as Nietzsche and say that there was only one Christian, and he died on a cross, but I do think that the concept of vicarious salvation is a very incomplete doctrine and a distortion of the original Christianity.

Ultimately, then, I am drawn to religious writings as signposts and attempts to work out the grand mystery of Being, and I do my best not to denigrate anything that was written by someone who genuinely felt they were in communion with the divine (this of course to my mind excepts the Book of Mormon, which was a conscious fraud). However, to actually just accept the writings at face value...well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale, and PT Barnum seems to think I can sell it.

It's just a bad idea to make unverified assumptions--either way. I do strongly agree that imperfect scribes mean even divinely inspired texts require some investigation and reflection to be validly and coherently apprehended. That's why I've spent so much time considering the PURPOSE of biblical texts rather than just their explicit meaning. Sometimes though a prohibition of idolatery is just a prohibition of idolatery (and biblical icons imperfect observance of it just underscore the need for investigation).

I've yet to see any noncanonical text supposedly excluded purely due to bias that wasn't a Gnostic pseudepigraph at best and outright forgery at worst. The line between those authors and Joseph Smith is very fine, IMHO. They're in the same ignoble tradition as Christian authors who altered Josephus' work to make references to Jesus declarations of His divinity: Not only did they falsify the record, but giving doubters of "the historical Jesus" a basis to question ANY reference by Josephus has permanently muddied the water. Gnostics consciously appropriated every pagan religion they encountered as a garbled version of theirs (ironically, I think most pagan resurrection myths were imperfect scribes garbled accounts of what Christians consider the Genesis proto-gospel), and did the same with Christianity; most things excluded from the NT are examples of that and/or known forgeries. I think it's more likely that the canon is too large than too small.

Common representations of the vicarious sacrifice by itself are often incomplete, but that's less a failing of the theology than theologians (particularly when people let others do their theology for them). A mere get out of Hell free card shifts the priority from God to man in just the way the gospels forbid. Pardon the retread of old ground, but IMHO the vicarious sacrifice works well as God deliberately creating an impasse between limitless love and limitless justice to manifest His glory by accomplishing the seemingly impossible. That neither trivializes nor exalts humanitys role, but puts its in perspective. As beings possessing the capacity to accept or reject a cooperative relationship with the divine, either choice manifests divine glory on multiple levels, most notably in granting, enabling and accepting our choice. That obviates criticisms such as God being needy, vindictive and/or coercive. The creations of Jeremiahs Potter are more than mere things, but the Potter is certainly not irrelevant either. Theologies of fire and brimstone, altruism, universalism, traditionalism etc. commit the error of making either God or man extraneous to an interaction the gospels explicitly make cooperative. Understand, I'm not trying to proselytize, I'm just saying that the simplistic treatments of the vicarious sacrifice regularly misrepresent and thus aren't an indictment of the doctrine itself; it's just another case of fallible scribes being unequal to the message (too often, willingly).
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Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 03:06:54 AM 2305 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 03:23:00 AM 1279 Views
All right. - 12/04/2011 05:50:08 AM 1261 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 06:27:14 AM 1238 Views
It would really depend on the mechanism - 12/04/2011 06:28:24 AM 1121 Views
You assume we all know, and agree on, what "soul" means. - 12/04/2011 08:42:47 AM 1151 Views
It is what hope, which is a thing with feathers, perches on. - 12/04/2011 07:32:07 PM 1233 Views
But seriously, what does it do? - 12/04/2011 11:01:58 PM 1218 Views
It makes poems pretty. - 13/04/2011 07:00:03 PM 1231 Views
Re: Yeah, exactly. - 15/04/2011 02:43:24 AM 1199 Views
Just going off the 'reborn' thing.. - 12/04/2011 08:53:28 AM 1130 Views
Hm. - 12/04/2011 03:22:01 PM 1237 Views
Agreed. - 12/04/2011 05:49:11 PM 1099 Views
it wouldn't change much for me, but I'm pretty flexible in my spiritual beliefs - 12/04/2011 04:23:34 PM 1253 Views
This. *NM* - 13/04/2011 04:15:11 PM 649 Views
Re: Questions about souls... - 12/04/2011 05:44:53 PM 1322 Views
What a fantasy. - 12/04/2011 07:57:38 PM 1180 Views
What happened to two? *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:20:41 PM 669 Views
Thanks, I fixed it. *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:29:20 PM 666 Views
Your comments, or mine? - 13/04/2011 01:24:53 AM 1648 Views
You get one guess. - 13/04/2011 07:09:01 PM 1370 Views
One dismissive answer deserves another. - 24/04/2011 12:54:44 AM 1253 Views
I'm a Christian who is partial to reincarnation, so I do not think much would change. - 12/04/2011 06:21:36 PM 1200 Views
*is disappointed* *NM* - 12/04/2011 08:01:05 PM 588 Views
You'd be surprised how frequently I get that from both sides. - 12/04/2011 08:22:24 PM 1177 Views
I bet you do! - 12/04/2011 08:47:59 PM 1151 Views
Re: I bet you do! - 13/04/2011 04:02:07 AM 1160 Views
Does it really? - 24/04/2011 01:09:34 AM 1075 Views
OMG! - 14/04/2011 06:19:50 PM 1169 Views
Go expand his worldview. *NM* - 14/04/2011 06:56:03 PM 612 Views
I think we are similar in some respects philosophically. - 13/04/2011 05:59:38 AM 1132 Views
Who says.... - 13/04/2011 07:11:24 PM 1097 Views
So then my question is.... - 13/04/2011 07:08:42 PM 1084 Views
Because I believe that Jesus was an incarnation of the λόγος. - 14/04/2011 12:36:36 AM 1125 Views
*heh* - 14/04/2011 04:12:32 PM 1229 Views
I think I answered it pretty clearly in my post title. *NM* - 14/04/2011 06:59:47 PM 668 Views
Actually, you didn't. - 15/04/2011 12:12:42 AM 1197 Views
Re: Actually, you didn't. - 24/04/2011 09:04:04 AM 1171 Views
I think that, like a lot of other people responding, I would want and need more information. - 12/04/2011 07:13:14 PM 1131 Views
Speaking of the agnostic/atheist thing - 12/04/2011 07:40:04 PM 1194 Views
99% that there is no God... - 12/04/2011 08:08:42 PM 1223 Views
Technically, no, atheists simply lack belief in a God. - 12/04/2011 08:19:15 PM 1168 Views
Whoah there, - 12/04/2011 08:26:43 PM 1137 Views
Okay, I have to admit I wasn't expecting to get called out on that. - 13/04/2011 04:03:08 AM 1243 Views
no I think that's just the literal definition... - 12/04/2011 11:19:18 PM 1078 Views
Isn't that what "technically" would imply? - 13/04/2011 04:04:42 AM 1282 Views
It certainly doesn't mean you can't make conclusions. - 12/04/2011 08:09:41 PM 1264 Views
Re: Campbell: - 12/04/2011 08:42:09 PM 1242 Views
Self-identification is an interesting point here. - 12/04/2011 09:00:46 PM 1185 Views
Re: Agree - 12/04/2011 09:22:22 PM 1192 Views
Answers. - 12/04/2011 09:05:38 PM 1127 Views
That's not a compelling counter-argument for me. - 12/04/2011 11:22:21 PM 1316 Views
Never mind. - 12/04/2011 11:34:46 PM 1109 Views
be sure to post if it does happen *NM* - 12/04/2011 11:56:17 PM 606 Views
Have you had any vivid dreams that came true? - 13/04/2011 01:16:59 AM 1072 Views
My mom used to have dreams like that, usually about relatives. - 13/04/2011 02:25:45 AM 1271 Views
I can easily believe that. - 13/04/2011 06:14:51 AM 1093 Views
Taking things at face value is usually unwise, but the face value can still be correct. - 24/04/2011 12:11:51 AM 1032 Views
Minivans can fit lots of useful stuffs, like furniture. *NM* - 13/04/2011 03:47:04 PM 663 Views
So can gas-guzzling SUVs, and full trucks. *NM* - 13/04/2011 05:13:20 PM 619 Views
for that matter, you can fit a surprising amount even in a baby truck! *NM* - 13/04/2011 06:36:58 PM 598 Views
I'd find it quite comforting - 12/04/2011 07:40:09 PM 1116 Views
Well, as I said in my census form on Sunday - 12/04/2011 08:36:05 PM 1266 Views
Pythagoras was a total nut. - 12/04/2011 10:05:42 PM 1224 Views
True - 12/04/2011 10:13:43 PM 1117 Views
It would upset my belief in science - 12/04/2011 09:39:39 PM 1277 Views
There's so much wrong with that statement. - 12/04/2011 09:55:45 PM 1263 Views
If science proved there really was an Easter Bunny would it affect your believe in science? *NM* - 12/04/2011 10:30:09 PM 710 Views
*is both bored and annoyed* - 12/04/2011 11:03:10 PM 1139 Views
right. - 12/04/2011 11:18:31 PM 1336 Views
and what if science proved that science was false? - 12/04/2011 11:48:32 PM 1224 Views
I think that's kind of the point; it can't. - 13/04/2011 01:33:44 AM 1088 Views
Did you read my original post? - 13/04/2011 03:13:34 AM 1054 Views
I did, yes. - 13/04/2011 03:32:18 AM 1089 Views
Yes it would upset my belief in science, why is that so hard to accept - 13/04/2011 01:56:59 PM 1211 Views
What's a soul? - 12/04/2011 10:51:39 PM 1118 Views
I can only give you my personal take. - 13/04/2011 01:47:39 AM 1239 Views
so did this guy took a railroad spike through the head - 13/04/2011 01:58:52 PM 1271 Views
Nah, he just got someone else's added to him. But now Ruin can influence him. *NM* - 13/04/2011 06:38:31 PM 668 Views
Thanks a lot - 13/04/2011 07:02:29 PM 1121 Views
No. - 23/04/2011 09:15:16 PM 1136 Views
but we know personality can be draticaly altered by physical means - 24/04/2011 03:28:36 AM 1461 Views
"We" don't know that; that's the problem. - 24/04/2011 07:02:49 AM 1287 Views
Can one have an identity without memory? *NM* - 13/04/2011 03:46:16 PM 633 Views
Sure. - 23/04/2011 08:53:51 PM 956 Views
Re: My question about souls: who will save your souuuuls? *NM* - 13/04/2011 04:04:21 AM 635 Views
I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space - 13/04/2011 04:00:51 PM 1120 Views
Re: I would becoming interested in tracing people's souls across time/space - 14/04/2011 03:29:55 AM 1206 Views
Sorry :-) - 14/04/2011 10:15:30 AM 1202 Views
Interesting concept.... - 13/04/2011 07:28:42 PM 1114 Views
Heh. Loose faith. - 14/04/2011 02:32:27 AM 1102 Views
It kinda still works though....doesn't it? - 14/04/2011 04:14:19 PM 1123 Views
it does work. well in fact! *NM* - 24/04/2011 03:24:25 AM 632 Views
Oooh... - 14/04/2011 04:31:30 AM 1178 Views
Who says..... - 14/04/2011 04:26:31 PM 1243 Views
Wow, thanks for all the responses!! - 14/04/2011 03:42:38 AM 1270 Views

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