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No, that would be net Biomass increase with time Isaac Send a noteboard - 24/10/2011 07:49:10 AM
Discrepancy highlighted for convenience; without clarifying that I am not completely certain what you are saying in this section.


A stable system requires only it's rate of changes to be balanced, two ponds of the same geometry connected will hold the same amount of water but water will constantly eddy back and forth between them, if we increase the size of one of the ponds, if we pour more water in, both ponds will deepen, to re-establish the same depth in pond A, we can expand the size of pond B, that there's a constant interchange of fluid between them changes nothing.

"Permanent" is a big word. Short of sealing carbon off in an impenetrable hole (which, again, I do not advocate) it cannot be permanently removed from the atmosphere.


This is incorrect, utterly, totally wrong, in spite of being a factually true statement :P I do not see how you could have read the sections I wrote and not seen your error here, but I know you read them so you've got some mental breaker interrupting the circuit, so to speak. Remove preconceived notions and start with the most simplistic... a large airproof tank is created with nothing but atmosphere and moisture in it, say 50 pounds of this are carbon dioxide. The tank itself is made of transparent adamantium and moving things in and out is accomplished only by means of a handy teleporter. So we have a transparent tank full of nothing but water and air, and we teleport in a per-wieghed and measured pots with some seeds in it. The seeds germinate and grow, using carbon in the air, and we measure a direct drop off in CO2 obviously. Now, these specific plants will inevitably die but so long as plants live in our terrarium the CO2 in the air is permanently reduced. No we erect several other identical terrariums and in some we place crops which grow and decay quickly, in others those which grow slowly but have long lives, like trees, these will all have different C02 rates in the air, lower in the one with trees... this is effectively 'permanent' and don't focus on the use of the word 'permanent' as eternal here, rather as something which does not change without external disruption of the system, nothing is permanent in the former sense and the word may as well be discarded if one insists on using it that way.

It cannot be even temporarily removed unless the amount converted to biomass exceeds the combination of what decaying biomass and burning fossil fuels release. The time scale in itself matters no more than the form of biomass: The amount of atmospheric CO2 CANNOT be as low as pre-industrial levels unless the amount of biomass at ANY GIVEN TIME equals the pre-industrial level plus the amount needed to store all carbon released by burning fossil fuels.


I'm not sure while you're ALL CAPPING, it makes me think you're undergoing mental distress. Those equations in the last post rather explicitly stated what you just said above, except I'm think you're drawing some inaccurate conclusions from the 'any given time'

That could take the form of biofuel, grain or redwoods (indeed, the last two are ultimately just forms of the first, though lumber has other uses,) but any of them would eventually die, decay and elevate atmospheric CO2 to its former levels unless replaced by an equal biomass.


Again, I think here's the disconnect, it doesn't matter if you're bailing water with buckets that have a small holes in it them so long as you're refilling the buckets at a rate equal to our greater than their leakage rate, if I have sixty 1 gallon buckets that leak at a rate of 1 gallon an hour next to one pond, and sixty two gallon buckets that leak at a rate of 1 gallon an hour next to another equal sized pond, each draining back into their ponds, and two gentleman stand next to each refilling the emptiest bucket every minute, the gentleman with the one gallon bucket will always have an average of half a gallon per bucket in sixty buckets or 30 gallons of water removed from our pond, whereas the other gentleman will have an average of 1.5 gallons or 90 gallons out of the pond.... this means that someone could dump 60 whole gallons of water into that second pond and the water level in it would be equal to the first pond, even though leakage rate is the same and they have equal numbers of buckets... Trees are big buckets.

The only relevance long term carbon sinks have is allowing more time to develop those replacements. Theoretically, we could cycle CO2 through massive seeding projects indefinitely, but the rate at which those projects must proceed is directly proportional to the persistence of the resulting carbon sinks: If the sinks last six months we must constantly plant at a break neck pace, whereas new forests that would last a century or two would allow a more relaxed pace (except perhaps during the first round.)

So I guess it is not fair to say sequestration is a fools errand, but it would take at least twice as much area as simply creating a sink for atmospheric CO2, because however great that value is, an equal value would be necessary for when the biomass occupying it has ceased removing CO2 from the atmosphere and begun reintroducing it. There is certainly a finite amount of carbon that can enter the atmosphere as CO2; most terrestrial carbon never will (or will only do so on geologic time scales, which is practically the same for our purposes and not something we can easily control regardless.) However, unless we truly DUMP rather than merely sinking it, that finite amount, whatever it is, can never leave that atmosphere without somewhere to go, and any place we put it as biomass is a temporary solution that must be complemented by an additional sink when it inevitably begins releasing the carbon it previously stored.


:banghead:

How the hell would a billion acres of apple orchards, planted in previously low 'green tonnage' locales like prairie or desert, not be a 'long term solution'? As long as you keep tending and harvesting it, whatever carbon is stored in that full grown orchard is out of play. Even just planting prairie grass on a desert and keeping livestock on it effectively permanently reduces atmospheric CO2 by their combined biomass amount plus whatever starts getting stored up in the humus they create, humus stores a lot of carbon. If we actually had cheaper desalinization, or people would relax about nuclear which is very well optimized for desalinization, we could setup soil layers with food or other marketable crops on more arid locations and easily deal with this carbon issue... fortunately rising populations will make this much easier to tackle.

Again, with the amount of terrestrial forestation falling rather than climbing that becomes a very significant obstacle to carbon sequestration as a practical solution. Sequestration requires increasing biomass by an amount equal to the increase in atmospheric CO2 since the Industrial Revolution AND SUBSEQUENTLY by an amount equal to that biomass before it releases its carbon again. As long as we continue reducing our vegetative biomass we cannot even begin the first part of that task, let alone the second, and doing the first without the second only delays rather than solves the problem. Simultaneously increasing the rate at which we clear forests AND burn fossil fuels was undeniably a double whammy that spiked atmospheric CO2, and anyone who thinks that has not increased Earths surface temperature is living in denial, but expecting to solve the problem by farming the Sahara is equally unrealistic. First and foremost, if that were an option we would not have been clearing forests for agricultural land in the first place, but, as I hope I have demonstrated, it would require planting an area 2/3 the size of Libya rather than 1/3 even if that option became viable tomorrow.
The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
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Interesting new Biofuel innovation: Magnetic Algae - 22/10/2011 03:05:13 AM 493 Views
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True, but sequestrations bottom line is we have to remove more than is released from biomass. - 23/10/2011 11:41:20 AM 366 Views
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No, that would be net Biomass increase with time - 24/10/2011 07:49:10 AM 253 Views
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Frequently, hence the comment. - 23/10/2011 09:35:31 AM 322 Views

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