Active Users:274 Time:14/05/2024 01:37:54 AM
Well, and I would have expected a lot more nuance from you. Your response was worthless. Tom Send a noteboard - 15/01/2012 04:40:57 PM
If you had posted the immediately preceding response as your initial one I could have discussed it. "Worst post ever" is seriously extreme hyperbole and doesn't even bother to take the time to refute anything in any meaningful way.

My moral paradigm is not "militant western democracy". Although I, raised in a pluralistic secular democracy, was appalled at the Taliban when they oppressed women, murdered people for not following a tyrannical brand of Islam, blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas and destroyed thousands of priceless works of art in the Kabul museum, and engaged in lots of other reprehensible conduct that would take an entire book to catalogue, I saw no reason for the United States to intervene in the way they were oppressing their own people. Just as we don't invade nations like Zimbabwe or Burma simply because they butcher, torture and starve their own people, it made no sense, up to 8:45 am on September 11, 2001, to even consider wasting time, effort, human lives and billions of dollars fighting a regime that did not seem to pose a threat to the United States or have any strategic value for us whatsoever.

I'm not interested in seeing the United States forcibly forward the interests of democracy in any foreign country, and Iraq is a wonderful example of how democracy cannot be imposed on a people from without. I personally think that Karzai probably should have been removed by the US military years ago as he's one of the most corrupt and mendacious people we could have chosen. I also think that the US should have taken the opportunity, presented years ago, to align itself solidly with the moderate Northern Alliance since it was clear that the Taliban and Pashtuns were a near synonym. In short, if we had taken sides in the Afghan Civil War from the start, we would have had better success. Treating the Pashtuns as the enemy would have been better.

It also would have let us partition Afghanistan along ethnic lines, and then tell Pakistan that it could occupy Pashtun regions, something that Pakistan would probably have been happy to do - they want the "strategic depth" and could have gotten rich off the opium trade.

But enough about the fact that I'm more a "realpolitik" sort of asshole rather than a touchy-feely "we want to give you the gift of democracy" sort of person.

The simple fact is that there is ample evidence that the Taliban regime was not simply providing safe haven to al-Qaeda - it was in bed with al-Qaeda. The Taliban bear direct responsibility for attacking the United States and murdering thousands of innocent Americans in addition to the tens of thousands of innocent Afghans they murdered (and continue to murder). Intentional targeting of civilians, intentionally murdering people who are trying to teach little girls in Afghanistan, horrendous torture - nothing the United States has done can, by any objective standard, come close to where they are.

So am I comfortable portraying them as "bad"? Yes. Does that mean that everything the US troops do is "good"? No. However, something as minor, in the grand scheme of things, as pissing on a couple of corpses, is not a "moral" problem for me.

For the record, in the past I've expressed the opinion that cemeteries are a waste of space and that cremation should be the only legal means of disposing of corpses. Corpses are a rarified form of garbage that we deal with differently out of memories of the person who used to be there.


Considering what I've seen at this site, the simple expression of an opinion that I personally feel no moral outrage that corpses of enemies of the US are pissed on by soldiers is hardly the worst post ever.

If it isn't rampant hyperbole, you're complete idiots.


It's not the most offensive thing I've ever read, here or there, but also the source: I would have expected a little more from you. It seems ill-considered.

You feel that your moral paradigm, militant western democracy, is greater than the Taliban's moral paradigm, militant Islamic theology. Well, that's fine: I actually agree with that. But there's a reason that human beings have come up with certain codes of conduct, for instance, the Geneva Convention, to codify the operations of war. Within that codification, to which our military subscribes, we recognize the inherent immorality of the desecration of dead human bodies. We say it's an immoral thing to do, whether it's done by our enemies or done by our own soliders, and we recognize that certain acts go above the finger pointing of "this side is worst than that side", and are inherently, universally "wrong". You're shrugging that off and saying that this immoral act is okay, because those other guys are so immoral, which unravels the whole ball of string. If the Taliban were pissing on the flag-draped bodies of dead marines, you'd very likely be upset. I find either circumstance incredibly disturbing and base, and "wrong".

(If you come up with something interesting in response, I might reply. Ad hom and I'm all set, as I'm reading Sex at Dawn and it's super engaging.)
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Am I the only one who doesn't care if the Marines piss on the corpses of Taliban? - 13/01/2012 03:28:08 PM 1633 Views
Eh, it makes our guys look like uncivilized barbarian hicks. - 13/01/2012 03:37:24 PM 807 Views
They're not? *NM* - 17/01/2012 09:52:28 AM 421 Views
Probably not the only one. - 13/01/2012 03:51:18 PM 965 Views
I agree. *NM* - 13/01/2012 08:11:57 PM 395 Views
Well said. *NM* - 13/01/2012 10:52:26 PM 363 Views
Excellent post. - 14/01/2012 04:23:32 PM 686 Views
well said indeed. *NM* - 14/01/2012 06:30:21 PM 422 Views
Actually, IIRC, we were told the Afghanistan war was important because of the Talibans threat to us. - 14/01/2012 11:18:28 PM 663 Views
Yes, that was part of it. Of course. AND we were going to help bring democracy. - 15/01/2012 12:42:57 AM 632 Views
If we have time, sure. - 15/01/2012 10:18:31 PM 765 Views
ooookay. *NM* - 16/01/2012 12:12:06 AM 373 Views
? - 16/01/2012 01:17:37 AM 677 Views
Re: ? - 16/01/2012 12:22:39 PM 687 Views
I quite agree with Joel on this point (frightening as that admission may be). - 16/01/2012 02:01:05 PM 680 Views
Doesn't matter. - 16/01/2012 02:33:53 PM 680 Views
Your definition of "terrible thing" seems quite elastic. - 16/01/2012 07:21:12 PM 601 Views
I knew I had a good reason to hate you! - 16/01/2012 09:14:47 PM 687 Views
It took this post for you to realize that? - 16/01/2012 09:17:00 PM 668 Views
I am pissed at them - 13/01/2012 06:00:56 PM 966 Views
Yup. *NM* - 13/01/2012 06:07:10 PM 395 Views
Nope, you aren't. - 13/01/2012 07:08:06 PM 633 Views
I have a strong feeling that this was not the worst that's been done to those bodies - 13/01/2012 10:43:34 PM 743 Views
any army simply reflects the society it is created from - 13/01/2012 11:06:57 PM 806 Views
Agreed - 14/01/2012 12:37:45 AM 686 Views
You're far from the only one, but I don't agree with it. - 14/01/2012 12:17:31 AM 762 Views
Awful. Worst post ever. *NM* - 14/01/2012 05:12:41 PM 509 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 14/01/2012 06:28:25 PM 372 Views
That's absurdly stupid of both of you. Expression of legitimate opinion hardly qualifies as "worst" - 14/01/2012 08:46:30 PM 659 Views
I agree worst post ever is one hell of a high bar - 15/01/2012 03:52:42 AM 684 Views
I vaguely remember that post - 15/01/2012 04:06:32 AM 612 Views
Seriously, I once posted nude pics of a chat admins wife and THIS is the worst post ever? *NM* - 15/01/2012 05:28:32 AM 361 Views
wow...thats kinda fucked up Adam..... *NM* - 15/01/2012 05:58:37 AM 301 Views
Thank you. *bows* *NM* - 15/01/2012 06:46:03 AM 338 Views
Personally, I expected a little more nuance from you. - 15/01/2012 03:52:24 PM 931 Views
Well, and I would have expected a lot more nuance from you. Your response was worthless. - 15/01/2012 04:40:57 PM 835 Views
moral? - 14/01/2012 09:53:01 PM 737 Views
I agree it was stupid to record it, and a breach of policy. - 14/01/2012 11:05:49 PM 623 Views
im just baffled - 14/01/2012 11:36:32 PM 646 Views
Well, in the future you can expect it. - 15/01/2012 02:54:59 AM 633 Views
This shows that you are a bit of a sociopath *NM* - 15/01/2012 08:08:39 AM 336 Views
But we knew that already. *NM* - 15/01/2012 11:18:02 AM 358 Views
You're still upset I called American girls prudes. - 15/01/2012 04:43:31 PM 567 Views
I had forgotten you called American girls prudes - 16/01/2012 10:22:50 AM 649 Views
as someone said on the radio recently... - 16/01/2012 08:41:25 PM 649 Views
They aren't conditioned to murder, much less "in cold blood" - 16/01/2012 09:15:54 PM 740 Views
surprisingly there really is no conditioning to kill - 16/01/2012 09:33:51 PM 671 Views
You used the phrase enemy combatant... - 17/01/2012 10:34:41 PM 637 Views
they are a problematic enemy - 17/01/2012 11:41:11 PM 959 Views
stop listening to idiots on the radio *NM* - 16/01/2012 09:16:42 PM 334 Views

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