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Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not? Joel Send a noteboard - 05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM
No atheist with any sense will claim that the negative has been proven and a god cannot possibly exist. You're trying to define atheism out of existence, but all that does is removes a useful label. The two positions I set out above are both common, so it's useful in discourse to have two separate terms for them. Widening one term so as to include both, while narrowing the other term such that it fits almost nobody, is not helpful to the discussion; nor does it undermine either of the two positions.

Absent irrefutable evidence, I would say, "not." "Almost completely irrefutable" is the same as "irrefutable" to the same extent "almost completely alive" is the same as "alive" (i.e. not at all.) A somewhat ironic difference between proof and evidence is that negative forms of the latter, but not the former, are possible.

The root problem is that existence of a deity is a metaphysical question, but many materialists pretend that is somehow not a metaphysical position and therefore not subject to metaphysical rules. That is no more valid than a biologist insisting cells are unaffected by gravity, or a geologist claiming rocks do not oxidize.

Absolute proof of anything is difficult to impossible to obtain, in law, philosophy, science or anywhere. The best we can do in nearly every case is a very high degree of evidence (and I contend negative evidence against a deity is far from irrefutable; quite the opposite, IMHO.) Yet the difficulty of obtaining absolute proof does not grant the ability to claim rational certainty absent proof, only preclude absolute certainty in nearly all cases.

We cannot rationally say, "Well, OK, disproving a deity would be proving a negative and therefore impossible—but there is still no deity!" Appending "OK, there might possibly be a deity, but there definitely is not" makes the first statement less, not more, rational.
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This message last edited by Joel on 05/03/2012 at 12:03:11 PM
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Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? - 28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM 2179 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously. - 28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM 1499 Views
Ooo that is hilarious *NM* - 28/02/2012 08:22:19 PM 553 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that. - 28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM 1220 Views
Well, for starters, it's really effing rude. - 28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM 1299 Views
It is an act of love. - 29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM 1287 Views
Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity) - 29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM 1174 Views
I have some disturbing news for you... - 29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM 1216 Views
For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so - 29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM 1253 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated.... - 29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM 1066 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting. - 29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM 1186 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting. - 29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM 1256 Views
I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours... - 29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM 1253 Views
I'm surprised to see some of this. - 01/03/2012 12:11:31 PM 1103 Views
You said it was really effing rude. - 29/02/2012 08:18:40 PM 1265 Views
I meant that the act of choosing for someone else - 29/02/2012 08:54:02 PM 1140 Views
Question - 29/02/2012 07:58:32 PM 1239 Views
No, I don't blame them or think they are fools. - 29/02/2012 08:41:13 PM 1238 Views
It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one. - 29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM 1331 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous. - 29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM 1246 Views
It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo - 29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM 1253 Views
You are trying your best to not understand. - 29/02/2012 07:12:57 PM 1264 Views
I suspect that that is where a lot of the issue with it lies. - 02/03/2012 01:33:43 AM 1337 Views
one thing - 29/02/2012 06:25:45 PM 1273 Views
Precisely *NM* - 29/02/2012 06:59:15 PM 591 Views
Bad example - 05/03/2012 05:06:21 AM 1335 Views
Why would they be angry about that? - 02/03/2012 01:23:56 AM 1460 Views
Denying people rights since it was written 3000 years ago? - 28/02/2012 07:44:02 PM 1165 Views
Isn't religion different than faith, though? - 28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM 1277 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said - 28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM 1089 Views
Only if I get to be Pope. - 28/02/2012 08:25:45 PM 1217 Views
I love me my vices! Thanks Pope - 28/02/2012 10:14:27 PM 1104 Views
Generally the same way you piss off anyone else - 28/02/2012 08:43:04 PM 1206 Views
Great post. - 28/02/2012 09:18:38 PM 1186 Views
I find that the best way is to smile. - 29/02/2012 06:23:50 AM 1212 Views
Some answers - 28/02/2012 09:05:35 PM 1171 Views
that won't work on Buddists - 28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM 1236 Views
On the other hand ... - 28/02/2012 09:28:27 PM 1087 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM 602 Views
LOL same *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:31:38 PM 580 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM 731 Views
Telling anyone what they actually believe will work. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:51:56 PM 576 Views
This kind of works for many, doesn't it? - 29/02/2012 06:22:33 PM 1084 Views
I'm an atheist, and I consider it to be my religion. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:51:00 PM 546 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist." - 28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM 1403 Views
I second that - 29/02/2012 03:46:15 AM 1208 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism. - 29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM 1326 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but... - 29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM 1102 Views
What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born. - 05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM 1256 Views
So what do you call this position?: - 05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM 1205 Views
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean. - 05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM 1299 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous. - 05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM 1078 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not? - 05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM 1298 Views
What's happening - 05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM 1317 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition. - 07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM 1619 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people? - 07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM 1214 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes. - 11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM 1099 Views
Whatever. - 12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM 1590 Views
*NM* - 12/03/2012 01:14:39 AM 599 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree." - 13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM 1381 Views
I saw it as.... - 13/03/2012 10:44:37 PM 1106 Views
My browser does not like your gif. - 13/03/2012 11:32:06 PM 1379 Views
I have a few good quotes for this one. - 29/02/2012 03:29:22 PM 1231 Views
I snerfled. *NM* - 29/02/2012 05:12:32 PM 578 Views
Re: That's it? *NM* - 01/03/2012 06:33:48 AM 649 Views
Re: Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? - 02/03/2012 01:47:03 AM 1145 Views

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