Re: He rather seems like the real deal - unlike most of the proven doping cases.
snoopcester Send a noteboard - 23/07/2012 11:08:41 PM
Bjarne Riis was full of doping when he won his one Tour, to be sure, but I haven't seen much evidence that his "conversion" isn't genuine - he's had to work hard to regain himself the benefit of the doubt, of course. He's been linked to some people who were accused of doping, yeah, but as you say, that doesn't prove much.
Not just when he won the Tour but for the 5 years around that Tour. He only confessed to doping after a number of his team mates had and years of assumption he had been and with the allegations overshadowing how CSC was doing on the road - at least as much pushed as jumped... and he could hardly have remained in his job without expressing remorse.
How realistic is that assumption, really? I mean, if you assume that a high-profile rider like Contador is doping for most of his career, considering the amount of tests he's had to take during all that time, that would essentially mean your tests are, well, the next thing to worthless, catching doping only when the riders get careless. But the tests seem pretty efficient otherwise, so are we really supposed to think Contador just is that much smarter or has access to stuff that is that superior?
There is always a lag between a new drug being available and the test for it, so yes a lot of the tests are worth little beyond ruling out older forms of doping. Look at how long it was after EPO was known to be in common use before they could actually detect it - We have already discussed Riis who is a great example. They rely on stupidity like Landis and Vinokourov who massively over did it after bad moments in a race. This is recognised by the push for the biological passports, to try and spot odd movements in the riders' biology over a period of time... and Contador supposedly showed some very odd values.
In nearly all of the high-profile doping cases in recent years, the result didn't come as much of a surprise when you looked at the rider's recent achievements. Landis - his ride to Morzine was a throwback to the good old days, but when a guy who was never much more than a (pretty good) domestique suddenly pulls Merckxian stunts in an era when those are generally considered impossible, yes, well. Schumacher - suddenly beating Cancellara twice in TTs in a single Tour when he rarely came close before. Heras - being surprisingly good througout a whole Vuelta and then actually winning the final time trial. Piepoli and Ricco - being able to attack time and again, even on the steepest mountains.
You are right but that might just be very real proof of how hard it is to detect a top doping programme - Heras is the only odd one there, as a 3 time Vuelta winner and 6 other top 5 finishes in Grand Tours before he was caught using EPO. Of course Heras went from being a top climber who couldn't time trial to one who could very well... while at the team who were grooming Contador to be a top climber who could time trial very well.
Contador - or Fränk Schleck, for that matter - doesn't fit that pattern. It's not impossible, I suppose, that they'd fall into the category of riders who resort to doping when their form isn't good enough and they are desperate to live up to expectations, although I'm still not convinced either one was guilty of even that much. But their careers are credible, show realistic progression, and no impossible feats inconsistent with what they've ever shown before.
It might just be they are riders who have stayed with teams who have doping programmes, rather than it being ignored while riders do it - I seem to remember Contador's time trial when he won his first Tour was a bit of a shock at the time though.
Armstrong is of course the big riddle in that view of doping... his pre-cancer career, while certainly of considerable merit, didn't really show any Tour-winning ability. But he's come out of that cancer with an indomitable willpower, and perhaps that did make the difference between a sub-top rider and a real world class one, without any need for doping. Or perhaps not.
The thing with Armstrong was that he was a good rider pre-cancer but he changed both the type of rider he was and also became even better - pre-cancer he'd won the World Championship at 23 (I think it was?) and at least a couple of classics.
*MySmiley*
Robert Graves "There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money, either."
Henning Mankell "We must defend the open society, because if we start locking our doors, if we let fear decide, the person who committed the act of terror will win"
Robert Graves "There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money, either."
Henning Mankell "We must defend the open society, because if we start locking our doors, if we let fear decide, the person who committed the act of terror will win"
Wiggins wins the Yellow Jersey
- 22/07/2012 06:03:38 PM
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I went to school with a fellow named Wiggins.
- 22/07/2012 07:03:04 PM
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Perhaps it is the same person?
- 22/07/2012 07:12:51 PM
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About as likely as him being an ancestor of fictional future character Ender Wiggin.
- 22/07/2012 07:17:51 PM
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A different spelling there though?
- 22/07/2012 08:10:25 PM
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That's why I went with unlikely ancestor. Spellings can change over the centuries. *NM*
- 22/07/2012 11:08:46 PM
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With there being only five Britons in the Tour, their dominance is certainly impressive.
- 22/07/2012 07:24:37 PM
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It does show how little strength in depth there is, though Dan Martin was born and raised in Britain
- 22/07/2012 08:06:07 PM
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Re: With there being only five Britons in the Tour, their dominance is certainly impressive.
- 22/07/2012 10:41:00 PM
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Oh please.
- 23/07/2012 06:32:41 PM
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Re: Oh please.
- 23/07/2012 09:20:40 PM
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He rather seems like the real deal - unlike most of the proven doping cases.
- 23/07/2012 09:49:20 PM
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Re: He rather seems like the real deal - unlike most of the proven doping cases.
- 23/07/2012 11:08:41 PM
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I approve of this development
- 24/07/2012 08:06:53 PM
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