Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting.
Dark Knight Send a noteboard - 13/09/2012 10:14:12 PM
The goaltender comparison is not a good one. A goaltender can almost win a game by himself, given just one goal by his teammates. An apt comparison would be to a baseball pitcher, who also controls the game and just needs one run. A quarterback, however, needs a whole team to win. They throw the ball, that's all. They need receivers to catch it and to know the proper routes to run. They need an offensive line to block for them so they have time to throw it. They need the defense to hold the other team to fewer points. Really, the only way to judge QBs is by numbers, because team success has too many variables.
If teammates affect a quarterback's stats so much, why does a stat comparison matter? Maybe the guy with lesser stats just had teammates who didn't catch the ball as well, which would affect most of the stats you listed, or defenses that gave up too many touchdowns, which would affect the win-loss stats. Or do the stats take into account how well the receivers catch the ball? Do they take into account how much pressure the quarterback was under when he made the throw (ie. how well the offensive line did)? I don't know football stats well enough to automatically say they don't, but I suspect they don't. And if they don't, how can you make an individual comparison based on stats that only partly depend on the individual?
I despise win/loss records for QBs, like they were baseball pitchers or something. So that is not a valid stat comparsion, you're right. To a large extent, receivers don't drop so many balls that it would drastically throw off a QB's numbers. It can, however, be argued that inferior receivers don't run proper routes, thus negatively affecting the QB's numbers. With that being said, a QB's numbers would eventually reflect their talent. A great QB, like Peyton Manning, can make medicore receivers look good, thereby improving his numbers despite the modest talents of his receivers. It's because of how well he directs the receivers and how well he throws the ball. A bad QB will throw the ball all over the place, forcing the receiver to make more difficult catches.
Just to add, a hockey goaltender's stats do to some extent depend on the team as well, but not to the extent you listed for a quarterback. Sure, save percentage is a good indicator because it tells you what percentage of shots are stopped regardless of how many shots come at him, but a poor defense will allow more quality shots against. More odd-man rushes, more breakaways. An undisciplined team will take more penalties and allow more powerplay shots against their goaltender, which are harder to stop through screens. An inexperienced defense might cause more inadvertant tips, or might be less able to clear screening forwards out of the crease area, all of which make shots harder to stop. Better goaltenders tend to rise above the crop and compensate to some degree, but a goalie's win-loss record, his save percentage, and his goals-against-average aren't entirely based on his own performance. So if you want to debate, for example, Martin Brodeur versus Dominik Hasek, it's not as simple as comparing their stats.
True, but there is still some level of control with the goaltender's ability. A hall-of-fame talent goaltender can greatly make up for the deficiencies of his teammates, while a good goaltender can get into the hall of fame because of a stellar defense. Likewise, a good pitcher in baseball might be bailed out by stellar defense, whereas a great pitcher with a poor defense would need to strikeout more batters or induce simple ground or pop outs.
Formerly Mat Bloody Cauthon on Wotmania, blessed be its name
Help me settle argument about NFL QBs
13/09/2012 06:20:48 PM
- 789 Views
Ben Roethlisberger is better than Philip Rivers as of now, regardless of stats.
13/09/2012 07:06:34 PM
- 553 Views
So if they traded QBs they would switch places in ranking?
13/09/2012 07:37:26 PM
- 645 Views
Good points, but these aren't Rivers and Roethlisberger lol *NM*
13/09/2012 08:08:57 PM
- 311 Views
argument is the same no matter who the QB is and I think I have made my opinions clear on the others *NM*
13/09/2012 08:33:16 PM
- 387 Views
Is this the third post about that same argument?
13/09/2012 08:12:03 PM
- 660 Views
I'm sorry, is this not a free country?
13/09/2012 08:26:21 PM
- 579 Views
Right, well.
13/09/2012 08:43:02 PM
- 718 Views
Re: Right, well.
13/09/2012 08:48:27 PM
- 714 Views
If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting.
13/09/2012 09:17:50 PM
- 674 Views
Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting.
13/09/2012 09:28:04 PM
- 701 Views
Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting.
13/09/2012 09:53:21 PM
- 624 Views
Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting.
13/09/2012 10:14:12 PM
- 602 Views
Re: If you want to have that debate more broadly, then it's more interesting.
13/09/2012 10:40:18 PM
- 793 Views
Sorry, the FG attempt was not blocked: Romo bobbled the snap, then ran for 0 yards.
14/09/2012 01:18:08 PM
- 762 Views
Wrong game
14/09/2012 01:31:23 PM
- 603 Views
Ah; in that case staggering into ones own endzone and taking a knee is on the ball carrier, yes.
14/09/2012 09:43:51 PM
- 731 Views
...in the 1st qtr! They were up by 12 with 5 mins to go. So... *NM*
14/09/2012 10:09:27 PM
- 365 Views
Yeah, remember that, too, but those 5 Giants points made the difference.
14/09/2012 10:30:56 PM
- 665 Views
post something else and these three post won't seem as important
13/09/2012 08:36:29 PM
- 611 Views
For once I agree with you completely.
14/09/2012 01:11:20 PM
- 690 Views
Me too. You filty commie bastards.
14/09/2012 11:28:37 PM
- 838 Views
OK, I am starting to feel dirty now, but it was worth it to hear someone call rt a commie.
15/09/2012 12:13:12 AM
- 723 Views

According to Wikipedia, you're talking about...
13/09/2012 09:05:26 PM
- 549 Views
Close
13/09/2012 09:21:18 PM
- 745 Views
Same argument - Eli >> Romo due to leadership, big games, and championships. *NM*
13/09/2012 10:31:12 PM
- 272 Views
So a game manager is a better QB than a skilled QB?
14/09/2012 12:08:43 AM
- 570 Views
No, but a 2-time Super Bowl MVP that led two game-winning drives is better.....
14/09/2012 01:06:18 AM
- 567 Views
No questions
14/09/2012 01:12:09 AM
- 580 Views
Typical jealous Cowboys fan.
14/09/2012 01:20:38 AM
- 618 Views
Typical Giants fan
14/09/2012 01:30:54 AM
- 545 Views
Romo hasn't been the same since Jessica Simpson dumped him.
14/09/2012 01:52:50 AM
- 655 Views
and Eli has been great since he threw a fit about who was drafting him *NM*
14/09/2012 11:31:23 AM
- 274 Views
If Romo was playing on the Giants last year they would have done much better than 9-7
14/09/2012 11:30:36 AM
- 637 Views
Well you got that answer right even if you missed the question
*NM*
13/09/2012 09:36:53 PM
- 272 Views

That is somewhat ironic, since Hasselbeck also has the Super Bowl appearance Romo lacks.
14/09/2012 01:03:06 PM
- 722 Views
And that is why Jim McMahon is a greater QB than Dan Moreno and Danny White
14/09/2012 01:39:27 PM
- 564 Views
The '05 Seahawks D is nothing like that of the '85 Bears, and neither is that of the '07/'11 Giants.
14/09/2012 09:45:34 PM
- 642 Views
Tony did just beat Eli.
13/09/2012 11:28:00 PM
- 635 Views
Romo does well in the first game of the season, Eli does well in the last game of the season.
13/09/2012 11:55:13 PM
- 639 Views
As a Lions fan, all I can say about the two is...
14/09/2012 09:00:15 PM
- 562 Views
Ah, yes, Detroit; they were down 27-3 to Dallas at the end of the third quarter, right?
14/09/2012 09:51:01 PM
- 695 Views
End of the half
14/09/2012 10:13:24 PM
- 627 Views
Box score says it was 20-3 at the half.
14/09/2012 10:22:40 PM
- 738 Views
Re: Box score says it was 20-3 at the half.
14/09/2012 11:04:56 PM
- 646 Views
Yeah, OK 27-3 with 10:30 left in the third; you got me to look it up after all.
15/09/2012 12:33:53 AM
- 666 Views
Based only on those numbers, I say #1 is better.
14/09/2012 02:21:17 PM
- 561 Views
Heh, I guess an Eagles fan is an unbiased, if not totally objective, arbiter.
14/09/2012 09:35:47 PM
- 607 Views
QB #2.
17/09/2012 03:08:18 AM
- 660 Views
You honed in on and explained the difference perfectly.
17/09/2012 05:48:21 PM
- 654 Views