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What evidence and eyewitness testimony do you have in mind? Joel Send a noteboard - 13/08/2013 11:19:30 PM

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If Martin had not been shot there was more than enough evidience to convict him assault but still some people just need to believe certain things to prop up their world view.

It is clear who initiated the confrontation (i.e. Martin did not chase down Zimmermans vehicle on foot, and Zimmerman called the police while pursuing him before the confrontation began.) All that remains to determine is whether the confrontation and result were justified; it is hard to convincingly argue for either. Physically defending oneself from a strangers confrontation in ones own neighborhood is not "assault" (again, it is pretty much the basis of Stand Your Ground laws.) Conversely, shooting someone after picking and LOSING a fight is not "self defense," let alone justifiable homicide. That is not to say it is necessarily murder, and I agree the available evidence in this case made murder beyond a reasonable practically impossible to prove, but I also think a there is a very strong case for manslaughter.

Fact: Martin did not confront Zimmerman, Zimmerman confronted him.

Fact: That directly caused Martins death.

Those are not matters of interpretation, or suppositions needing witness corroboration: They are undisputed incontrovertible facts no world view can alter.

Incidentally, implications Zimmerman would would have chased down, fought, shot and killed a white kid walking home from the store in a nice neighorhood does not exactly exonerate him nor reassure me. The racial overtones here are far less serious than (because, IMHO, secondary to) the conceit civilian vigilantes merit the benefit of a doubt for killing innocent people. Zimmerman is not Bernard Goetz; Goetz defended himself from an unprovoked attack, and if the surviving attackers regret that defenses vigor the moral is "do not mug people." Zimmerman sought out, unprovoked, a kid who DIED for the "crime" of self defense; labeling self defense "assault" does not change that, only defy the very premise of Stand Your Ground laws.

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Okay, how can you use the Trayvon Martin case AGAINST the stand-your-ground laws? - 17/07/2013 10:15:55 PM 948 Views
You forgot to mention that Zimmerman didn't actaully use a stand your ground defense *NM* - 18/07/2013 02:03:51 AM 309 Views
the judge included it in the instructions to the jury - 19/07/2013 04:37:43 AM 507 Views
I love the let me say my piece then end the convesation tactic - 19/07/2013 11:50:02 AM 491 Views
Sources - 19/07/2013 12:35:39 PM 619 Views
so she did - 19/07/2013 01:08:08 PM 478 Views
um, when did the collegiate sports organization get involved in politics? - 18/07/2013 08:17:24 PM 846 Views
I imagine he meant to type NAACP. *NM* - 18/07/2013 08:25:26 PM 253 Views
It's a combination of even more guns in circulation and no duty to retreat if you feel threatened - 18/07/2013 09:13:47 PM 471 Views
blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate because they commit crime at a higher rate - 19/07/2013 04:31:06 AM 502 Views
[citation needed] - 19/07/2013 06:12:04 PM 442 Views
Don't be tedious, such a claim is unprovable but also the most logical inference - 19/07/2013 07:10:22 PM 500 Views
If logic says so, then obviously that must be the only course of action possible.... - 19/07/2013 07:44:44 PM 570 Views
Um, how'd you get that out of my remarks? - 19/07/2013 08:48:09 PM 466 Views
Honestly, I feel like we are getting into some dangerous territory here - 24/07/2013 06:25:15 PM 546 Views
I wonder what we can call the racism version of Godwinning. - 24/07/2013 07:01:20 PM 474 Views
Reductio ad Racism maybe? *NM* - 24/07/2013 08:16:28 PM 220 Views
We? I don't feel I'm in dangerous territory at all - 24/07/2013 08:10:24 PM 415 Views
lets look at your numbers becuase they are interesting - 20/07/2013 03:25:31 PM 465 Views
The short answer is you cannot; Martin stood his ground in an unprovoked attack and died for it. - 11/08/2013 09:01:36 PM 490 Views
so you are choosing to ignore the actual evidience and eye witnesses testimony? - 13/08/2013 09:04:09 PM 474 Views
What evidence and eyewitness testimony do you have in mind? - 13/08/2013 11:19:30 PM 472 Views
You really need to look up the fact since you appear to not know what it means - 14/08/2013 11:53:05 AM 444 Views
I am familiar with the definition. - 14/08/2013 01:29:28 PM 440 Views

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