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Okay, misunderstood you then. The different wages for the same job point still stands though. Legolas Send a noteboard - 06/10/2016 09:17:39 PM

View original postI'm not saying that. If I was, however, I would have been referencing how the (false) claim by feminists, nonetheless puts them in a bad light.

My point, which remains valid even if I had misunderstood yours, is that yes, in many cases women do make less, on average, than men with the same position. For the type of positions where wages are open to negotiation rather than rigidly determined by law or company-wide rules, that is. So yes, it has to do with negotiation - those women being less likely to assertively request a raise, less likely to drive a hard bargain or threaten to quit if a raise is not forthcoming. But it's not that simple, it's not that they are just worse at negotiating - it also has to do with society's expectations of how women should behave, which in many cases simply don't allow them to play the game as hard as men without suffering major negative consequences because they are perceived as bitchy, hysterical, or the like.

In order to make assessments of whether they are worse at negotiating or not, you'd have to be able to make fair, blind comparisons where women and men are held to the same social standards during the whole process.



View original postWhat is it then? That's what "equal rights" is all about, if you accept their premise that women are somehow relegated to inferior status. Responsibility is inherent in the possession or acquisition of rights and power. If you want more rights, power, agency or even money, you are asking to be trusted with more responsibility.

What I was trying to say is that society has moved past the 'can we trust women with responsibility' question a long time ago and considers it very much settled. And if you're asking the more fervent kind of feminists, they'd probably tell you that the real question is if men can be trusted with responsibility.
View original postThe genders are inherently unequal, so insisting on equal outcomes is an absurdity, because the degree of social, political and financial recompense that would be appropriate to cancel out the biologically imposed inequalities of the two sexes, and therefore any policy enacted or imposed on such a basis would be automatically and inherently unjust. You can voice all the disingenuously nebulous rhetoric about equality you like, but as you admit, we're at the point where the gap is pretty small, which means that if we are close to the finish line, we have to start defining the goal more precisely. We're at the point where feminists have to split hairs and invent grievances, because common sense perceptions, based on actual experience of people says that they've got equality and then some. They certainly have more explicitly codified and specific advantages and privileges than men do, and in fact, what privileges or exclusive male opportunities still exist do so only because it is impossible to adjust for them (i.e. peeing standing up, sports, etc), or because women are largely uninterested in them (possibly also peeing standing up and sports; word on the street seems pretty mixed on women's opinions of such things).

Thing is, of course there are real differences between the average man and the average woman, and there's a reason behind the stereotypes and the different expectations, but on the other hand both genders also cover such a wide range of personalities that very few of those differences are truly universal (and none at all once you start looking at transgender people), which means it's still important to continue the struggle for a society that doesn't impose the norm of the average on everyone.

And beyond that, I don't think we've really reached the point where women are genuinely what one might call 'separate but equal' just yet. Unless perhaps you use the term in its historical sense including the scare quotes around 'equal'.

View original postMost of the things that still exist, like sexual double standards, are artifacts of human reproduction, which already imposes a double standard, and imposed behaviors recognize that. Keeping a tighter lid on a daughter's sexuality than on a son's is no more discriminatory than Englishmen spending more on umbrellas than Arabs do - circumstances beyond human control dictate that one group faces more serious consequences than the other. The reproductive factor also imposes its costs elsewhere in areas of human activity, including governing women's individual choices, which comes back around to the alleged pay gap.

The scientific accomplishments of today's society do allow one to counteract such biological differences, though, with contraception largely invalidating that argument. And further down the line, while basic biology permits only the mother to give birth and breastfeed, there's no biological reason why the father couldn't handle most or indeed all other aspects of raising children. Very likely the large majority of couples wouldn't even desire such a role-reversal, but some would, and why should society frown on that? And more might desire it if there was indeed more tolerance for it.
View original postThere IS an income gap between women and men, but that is also largely due to women working much less than men do, and doing so less productively, in most cases, in service to lifestyle choices.

That's a large part of the explanation to be sure, but not the whole of it - and they are intertwined, in the sense that over the long term women would start making difference lifestyle choices if society's views on women and gender roles evolved, and they could make higher wages.


View original postThe paying more for cars is the entirety of the "negotiation skills" reference. The go-to myth from feminists on that car salesmen take advantage of female buyers and so women end up paying more for cars. Because it's sexism that they don't do any preparation or stick to their guns?

It sounds plausible enough that that would be the case, but I'd have to agree with you that it's not something really worth bitching about - those women for whom the salesman's generalized assumption is appropriate, well, you can't blame him for trying to make more money, and those for whom it's not appropriate can just walk away.
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Okay, misunderstood you then. The different wages for the same job point still stands though. - 06/10/2016 09:17:39 PM 629 Views

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