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That's not exactly what I said. Joel Send a noteboard - 24/11/2009 06:06:44 PM
The last few posts of Joel's I've read seemed to consist of such highlights as calling for war with China for the crime of buying up US debt and claiming the only reason the UK would be able to leave the EU peacefully and not be invaded as a result would be because the UK has nuclear weapons.

Nor exactly relevant to this discussion, but if we're going to debate my sanity on the CMB I suppose I'm obliged to contribute my two cents if only as a case study (gee, I'm so glad I came back, if only briefly.... :rolleyes: )

China's doing a great deal more than buying our debt. Forcing a USN plane in international airspace to land in China, where the crew was held hostage while the plane was dissected was, in point of fact, an act of war; we chose another route. Chinas leadership has openly stated they consider themselves in a competition with the US they intend to win, and if you think that competition is purely economic and/or political you should probably understand that the "peace at any price" attitude is one thing NOT going global. China no doubt made a pretty penny when they gave Pakistan the bomb, but that wasn't their primary motive any more than when they gave it North Korea nor as they've facilitated Irans nuclear ambitions by both blocking international attempts to stop it and offering much of what they need for a price. We're all very happy America won the Cold War, but no one told China that, and they're still fighting it by economic and every other means. And winning.

I'm not saying we MUST declare war on them. If they want to stop selling nukes to people we've been at war with since China set them up fifty years ago, stop shipping us poisoned food, stop supporting our enemies (their customers) in debates about whether they gain nuclear weapons, refrain from seizing our military craft in international areas, impose existing labor and create new environmental laws that would make industries less likely to weaken America and strengthen a self declared foe be relocation, well, at that point, them owning an ever increasing share of our debt wouldn't bother me as much. We were once in the same situation with Japan, but it bothered me a lot less because they didn't have nukes, hadn't declared a showdown with us, and if they went to war with anyone they'd have to use our Army to do it. It was just economics. This is geopolitics and economics is just one dimension of that.

I don't think we should attack China. I think when they stop getting everything they want at our expense they'll do what nations with such leadership have always done: Decide they've gotten as much as they can by diplomacy and hope it's gained them the time and resources they need to win an aggressive war. "War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means. " I believe a European said that.

The world is consolidating as globalism takes hold. That's why we have an unelected WTO able to make binding judgments on sovereign states. Maybe it's just the 300 million of us over here who are warped; another of the things I read on FiveThirtyEight this morning was a Mr. Renard Sextons take (from Switzerland) on the Lisbon Treatys purposes:

"When the Lisbon treaty comes into force on December 1st, the European Union will have achieved two of its key goals of the last decade -- improved coherance and a stronger common foreign policy. Among many other things, the Treaty brings major changes to two top posts in the EU, a permanent President of the European Council (rather than 6 month rotating among the heads of states/governments in the EU countries) and High Representative for foreign policy (merging the foreign policy mandate of the European Commission and the common foreign and security policy of the EU (the countries).

"In each post is a chance for strong leadership to redefine the role of the European Union vis-a-vis the members states -- particularly large EU countries like France, UK, Germany, Spain and Italy -- and carve out a bigger common space in the realm of foreign and security policy.... "

It goes on like that, but you get the gist; he seems to me to be saying things I thought given:

Yes, those who want a strong EU are dismayed by the new President, particularly because they know it was a deliberate attempt by the more powerful EU nations to undercut the very strength and centralization the Lisbon Treaty was designed to increase.

Don't sweat it, guys. It proves the EU isn't going to be the United States of Europe about as well as the relatively huge drop in global temperatures around 2000 disproves global warming. Within a year temperatures were right back where they were and rising again; I don't think the EU will turn around that quickly, but it'll happen. The choice of leaders foisted upon the EU is a reactionary holding action, and the only reason it happened in the first place is because Britain couldn't get the rest of Europe to accept what would've been a very strong President Blair.

I know that was long and off topic, but, once again, if we're going to have a group discussion of my sanity I feel entitled to rebut the arguments against.

EDIT: Not sure how I did that, but the moral is "always click your links after you post them. "

Anyway, it's been real, and it's been fun, but it hasn't been real fun for a while.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
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It's Really a Comparison to Obama, But The EU Assessment Looks Good.
This message last edited by Joel on 24/11/2009 at 06:19:18 PM
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No, I am sure global warming is just a myth. </sarcasm> - 24/11/2009 01:23:50 PM 749 Views
That ice is not melting - everyone knows temperatures aren't going up. - 24/11/2009 01:30:12 PM 441 Views
Precisely. - 24/11/2009 01:31:17 PM 406 Views
*NM* - 24/11/2009 01:52:03 PM 271 Views
They say that it's vanishing because it's melting... - 24/11/2009 01:49:24 PM 412 Views
*NM* - 24/11/2009 02:20:00 PM 299 Views
While I believe that the climate is changing - 24/11/2009 02:10:53 PM 669 Views
Not to excuse tomfoolery of any kind (fun word )... - 24/11/2009 02:14:41 PM 355 Views
You never deviate from serious and exact wording in your private e-mails? *NM* - 24/11/2009 02:21:22 PM 279 Views
I think this is a bit more than a deviation. - 24/11/2009 02:33:49 PM 600 Views
Sales figures are a good example - 24/11/2009 02:48:44 PM 370 Views
Re: I think this is a bit more than a deviation. - 24/11/2009 02:49:30 PM 503 Views
Climategate is a big scandal.....very damaging to the AGW kool-aid drinkers. - 24/11/2009 03:53:27 PM 376 Views
Exactly; just look at these guys: - 24/11/2009 05:38:33 PM 654 Views
Greenland was much less icy back in the days when it was first settled. - 24/11/2009 02:29:50 PM 468 Views
From what I understand - 24/11/2009 02:45:04 PM 537 Views
No one seriously argues against climate change. The myth is called the greenhouse effect - 24/11/2009 02:31:30 PM 379 Views
Yes they do. Well, depending how seriously you take trzaska2000 and others of his ilk... - 24/11/2009 02:53:33 PM 391 Views
I believe copy-right was aiming a bit higher than a specific person. You're not supposed to do that - 24/11/2009 03:17:31 PM 397 Views
But I was just using him as an example - to show that some people who think global warming a myth - 24/11/2009 03:27:13 PM 380 Views
I am not as crazy as Joel!!! - 24/11/2009 03:48:33 PM 512 Views
You keep telling yourself that - 24/11/2009 04:31:01 PM 423 Views
trzaska is way beyond joel on the madness-meter. - 24/11/2009 03:53:09 PM 488 Views
Please explain..... - 24/11/2009 03:56:51 PM 483 Views
I wouldn't know where to begin. - 24/11/2009 04:20:38 PM 511 Views
Not for a European, but for an American..... *NM* - 24/11/2009 04:29:59 PM 269 Views
bull you're middle of the road. - 24/11/2009 06:11:52 PM 354 Views
Define "middle of the road" then..... *NM* - 24/11/2009 06:25:59 PM 277 Views
About a hundred meters to the left of you. *NM* - 24/11/2009 06:59:49 PM 303 Views
That comment is irrelevant without a frame of reference..... - 24/11/2009 07:24:26 PM 389 Views
Re: That comment is irrelevant without a frame of reference..... - 24/11/2009 07:25:18 PM 349 Views
I'd agree that you're middle of the road as far as policy goes... - 24/11/2009 08:10:59 PM 345 Views
That's pretty accurate.....I do enjoy colorful rhetoric! - 25/11/2009 04:14:25 PM 335 Views
I'm not convinced - 24/11/2009 04:34:50 PM 410 Views
That's not exactly what I said. - 24/11/2009 06:06:44 PM 559 Views
I never said anyone is crazy. That is up to individual rafonauts' doctors. *NM* - 24/11/2009 04:02:43 PM 261 Views
You did open a helluva can of worms though, deliberately or not. - 24/11/2009 06:10:57 PM 478 Views
I was ridiculing myself for pointing to you at that earlier post a few days ago *NM* - 24/11/2009 06:22:04 PM 172 Views
Fair enough then. - 24/11/2009 06:24:36 PM 367 Views
Re: You're not supposed to do that - 24/11/2009 06:14:58 PM 343 Views
I submit myself to your punishment - 24/11/2009 06:24:26 PM 505 Views
It's cool, man. - 24/11/2009 06:31:17 PM 367 Views
Silly snoop.....my beef is with AGW, not GW in general..... - 24/11/2009 03:46:15 PM 414 Views
You should be clearer then - 24/11/2009 04:30:04 PM 343 Views

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