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I partially agree with LoS, and I partially disagree with you. Cymbaline Send a noteboard - 27/09/2009 12:07:07 AM
Condensing things into one response:

LoS:
Because from an intellectual point of view, I should have loved FFXII. I enjoy the idea of a more political, down-to-earth conflict; I like politics and nations in my stories; I enjoy worlds that feel fairly real. I also strongly support any effort to move storytelling in games beyond the status quo. Reading your post down below, I agree 100%.

But in the end, I couldn't finish XII. Just dropped it after a few hours; it was not able to hold my attention. Granted, the reasons for that are tied to gameplay even more than to story and plot, but something about the execution of the characters and plot played a role as well.


I like it intellectually more than I liked it in fact. I salivate over it intellectually, in fact I just thought it was pretty sweet. Not sure if it even cracks my top 10 PS2 games list. Perhaps it was a stumbling step in a bold new direction rather than a confident masterwork.

Also, for what it's worth, the gameplay drags until you get a party and get gambits - maybe five or six hours in? If you didn't make it that far and still have any interest and time, it might be worth trying to reach that point.


Jragghen:
Even for just your little bit of time, try to tell me it wouldn't have been a better game with just this tiny little switch: Vaan and Penelo don't exist.


I don't remember the plot well enough to meet all of your points head on, but I will defend Vaan and Penelo. It's some kind of classic storytelling device that I can't think of the name of - prime examples being R2-D2 and C3P0, both of whom were ripped off of two bumbling peons from an Akira Kurosawa epic? I think.

Spoilers ahoy, but anyway, Vaan and Penelo are neat because they give you a perspective that's not really involved in the conflict. They're two people who are (their country was invaded) but aren't (that's pretty much it) involved, but they get swept along for the ride and get to see things normally (in realistic terms, not in FF terms) visible only to the select few, like Ashe.

Personally, I loved them because they were gigantic spoilers of expectations. No one falls in love, including the obvious choice of Vaan and Penelo or Vaan and Ashe or whatever else. Furthermore, their lives just go back to what they were after the conflict - they don't get knighted, they don't become prince and princess, they aren't taken in by royalty and given some kind of ridiculous role at the palace. And last but not least, despite seemingly being the main characters, they're really not. Vaan and Penelo are just a huge bait and switch in the most delightful way. Square Enix throws them out there, and because it's a Final Fantasy, you assume all of these things about them will be true, but none of them are. I think it's fantastic.
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So being a FF fan and never having played FF 12... - 24/09/2009 10:25:44 PM 1130 Views
The story in FF12 leaves much to be desired - 24/09/2009 10:41:28 PM 1092 Views
I love FF but I didn't even bother to finish 12 *NM* - 24/09/2009 10:45:55 PM 464 Views
Videogame stories suck the big one, with VERY few exceptions. - 25/09/2009 12:29:39 AM 1006 Views
FF7?!?! You're a nutcase! - 25/09/2009 01:50:16 AM 911 Views
It was still good though - 26/09/2009 03:06:12 AM 795 Views
Fair enough. Maybe I'm proving my own point. - 26/09/2009 06:46:26 AM 972 Views
I will have to disagree with this... - 26/09/2009 08:20:46 AM 861 Views
Exactly. When I think story here, I think of the individual stories as well as the whole. - 26/09/2009 07:13:24 PM 982 Views
Still, it's good for a videogame story. - 26/09/2009 07:54:01 PM 911 Views
I agree, with caveat. - 26/09/2009 11:54:25 PM 1013 Views
New games do not feature the storytelling prowess of good TV, films, or novels. - 28/09/2009 01:03:46 AM 935 Views
I disagree. Maybe you're playing the wrong games. *NM* - 28/09/2009 04:51:48 AM 449 Views
What is the videogame equivalent of The Godfather, The Wire, or Great Expectations? *NM* - 01/10/2009 03:31:37 AM 483 Views
Ah, I see. *NM* - 03/10/2009 08:02:28 PM 485 Views
Say what? - 04/10/2009 02:21:01 PM 860 Views
"Ah, I see" means "You haven't answered because there is no satisfactory answer." - 05/10/2009 07:06:03 AM 885 Views
So you expect me to reply within two days when it took you three? - 05/10/2009 10:29:27 PM 845 Views
I've used that escape from a debate I was losing, too. It's a good one - 06/10/2009 09:21:31 PM 925 Views
I... don't think you understand how this works. - 06/10/2009 11:41:12 PM 876 Views
Anything of worth? - 09/10/2009 03:24:42 AM 863 Views
Cymbaline is right. Some games have excellent stories. - 29/09/2009 10:44:16 AM 851 Views
And yet so many people claim to play them for their stories... - 25/09/2009 03:06:44 AM 973 Views
The extras lower peoples' standards, but I DO think it's still the story. - 25/09/2009 04:34:30 AM 880 Views
That's basically what I meant. - 25/09/2009 05:05:19 AM 835 Views
Yeah I understand. - 25/09/2009 05:18:34 AM 946 Views
You are correct. But it sounds like semantics to me, since in practice... - 25/09/2009 06:00:41 AM 881 Views
I suppose it is, at that. - 25/09/2009 01:58:25 PM 927 Views
Well said. - 26/09/2009 06:48:10 AM 881 Views
I enjoyed 12 more than most of those you mentioned... - 25/09/2009 12:55:56 AM 859 Views
I agree. *NM* - 25/09/2009 02:44:08 AM 558 Views
The grid was fine, but didn't scale well. - 25/09/2009 04:35:57 AM 851 Views
I'll agree with this point, but I also agree with most of the thoughts of the GP - 25/09/2009 05:26:18 PM 938 Views
I am glad that at least one person here is with me on this. - 26/09/2009 05:53:42 AM 904 Views
It's interesting.... - 26/09/2009 06:55:18 PM 923 Views
Plot doesn't kick in until later on, sadly - 26/09/2009 07:27:55 PM 873 Views
I partially agree with LoS, and I partially disagree with you. - 27/09/2009 12:07:07 AM 1000 Views
Opinion mine: 12 was a great game, and a terrible Final Fantasy. - 25/09/2009 05:03:28 AM 949 Views
I didn't like it and didn't finish *NM* - 25/09/2009 05:34:42 AM 449 Views
i finished it recently and i found it allright - 25/09/2009 11:30:36 AM 1148 Views
Final Fantasy XII was the best written FF ever, by far. - 26/09/2009 05:47:27 AM 931 Views
I agree with this. - 26/09/2009 08:22:40 AM 930 Views
LOL... FFXII was the best FFXII ever? - 26/09/2009 03:43:11 PM 879 Views
That was juvenile, TMJ. Also, he said best written FF. *NM* - 26/09/2009 06:58:12 PM 482 Views
Yes, it was funny on a juvenile level. - 26/09/2009 07:11:12 PM 883 Views
Ah, I must have missed the typo. - 26/09/2009 08:32:51 PM 954 Views
So much confusion everywhere! - 26/09/2009 11:48:32 PM 961 Views
Some of us --I'd even say MOST of us-- like that, though. - 26/09/2009 07:20:55 PM 956 Views
Agreed, I want to get into a magical whale's belly and fly through the air ... - 28/09/2009 05:03:14 AM 1158 Views

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