Active Users:1042 Time:02/11/2025 05:13:35 PM
You're wrong. Tom Send a noteboard - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM

There is no uniform "j" sound. So saying "the J sound is not new" is wrong to begin with. The letter preceded the sound, actually. It was used in conjunction with vowel placement in handwritten texts to show that there was an "i" before another vowel because otherwise people might not see the "i" (especially in scripts where all the vowels were very small to save space). It was written in languages, like Latin and Italian, that have no distinct sound corresponding to "j" and which have no "j sound" as you call it. However, in French, the places where the "j" showed up often, due to the way French slurs most everything, elided the sounds in such a way that the sound that we now hear in French from "j" occurred naturally. This sound change happened distinct from the letter, but it happened where the letter showed up because the letter was so written when i preceded a vowel (which was also when the elision took place).

This change crossed the Channel and ended up in English. However, some other languages which still retain the use of "j" as separate from "i" nevertheless pronounce it as "y", its original value.

In other words, the symbol was used before the sound developed, and the sound developed for independent but related reasons.

The closer analogy to what you're arguing would be the distinction between u and v, where scribes were trying to show that the old Latin Vv had, by the late Imperial Period, ceased being pronounced as /u/ or, in certain contexts, /w/, but rather as /u/ and /v/. Even then, however, the two forms of the same letter (u and v) were used in ways different to our modern distinction - v was only written at the beginning of a word (much like many js), while u was written in any other position.

However, these were writing conventions that then ended up getting intertwined with shifts in language. The "ng" was just some guy's unilateral attempt at creating an unnecessary new letter. That hasn't worked at any point in history that I'm aware of.


Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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The Fascinating History of 10 Extra Letters the English Alphabet Used to Have - 18/01/2018 06:35:45 PM 1229 Views
I have to take issue with the & and the "long s" - 18/01/2018 07:28:09 PM 557 Views
Ok, let's define what a letter is. - 18/01/2018 11:25:22 PM 614 Views
Yes, the long "s" is just a variant. It didn't have a name in Old English. - 19/01/2018 03:39:51 PM 754 Views
I don't think not having a name in Old English matters here. - 19/01/2018 05:05:47 PM 864 Views
I think it does, quite definitively. - 20/01/2018 08:46:24 PM 610 Views
All th Germans I have known have considered ß to be a letter. - 20/01/2018 11:01:40 PM 661 Views
ß is a ligature - 21/01/2018 04:04:48 PM 563 Views
That article is even sloppier than the first - 20/01/2018 09:01:33 PM 561 Views
All letters were once "fake". - 20/01/2018 10:59:11 PM 630 Views
Isn't that kind of idealist - 21/01/2018 08:02:14 AM 596 Views
Realist perhaps - 22/01/2018 01:54:14 AM 560 Views
Pivots - 22/01/2018 03:43:56 AM 676 Views
Meanwhile - 22/01/2018 12:23:13 PM 523 Views
Olympics are grand aren't they? *NM* - 22/01/2018 05:23:56 PM 312 Views
Deutschland, Deutschland! - 22/01/2018 05:26:50 PM 463 Views
No, actually that's quite incorrect. - 21/01/2018 04:14:18 PM 592 Views
You've missed the point. - 22/01/2018 01:53:59 AM 614 Views
No, I'm trying to show the qualitative difference between the two events. - 22/01/2018 04:34:20 PM 494 Views
The letter J? *NM* - 22/01/2018 05:19:14 PM 369 Views
No, J is a lot like the long s. - 22/01/2018 07:23:01 PM 550 Views
Feels we are talking past each other. - 22/01/2018 07:52:53 PM 625 Views
You're wrong. - 23/01/2018 01:21:26 AM 659 Views
Agreed. Ligatures aren't letters. *NM* - 19/01/2018 06:13:43 AM 345 Views
Eh . . . the Ampersand is probably now considered a logogram rather than a ligature. - 19/01/2018 01:27:21 PM 552 Views
ſ is just a variant. *NM* - 19/01/2018 03:40:53 PM 391 Views
I enjoy this thread muchly...yet I will not participate besides saying - 19/01/2018 10:46:40 PM 551 Views
You're using sublime too often; it's losing its luster - 20/01/2018 12:15:10 AM 589 Views
Do I? (in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 12:46:35 AM 536 Views
(in regards to sublime) - 20/01/2018 03:18:04 PM 576 Views
Brilliant! *NM* - 20/01/2018 03:38:39 PM 324 Views
- 20/01/2018 11:20:11 PM 566 Views
*NM* - 23/01/2018 09:18:01 PM 321 Views
Is this payback for the irritating word, Umami? - 24/01/2018 07:25:56 AM 465 Views
Upapi? *NM* - 25/01/2018 08:41:14 PM 360 Views
Thank all gods everywhere they are gone. - 22/01/2018 12:23:34 PM 551 Views
Some other letters should go too. - 22/01/2018 01:12:31 PM 616 Views
How would you replace the ch sound? - 22/01/2018 04:15:04 PM 566 Views
I thought of removing C, as well. - 22/01/2018 06:16:20 PM 548 Views
The CH is a problem. - 22/01/2018 06:34:47 PM 468 Views
And calling people you don't like "fu king unts"? *NM* - 22/01/2018 07:25:29 PM 424 Views
Meanwhile if it were written as fuking kunts, no one would have any issues - 22/01/2018 07:54:41 PM 626 Views
I have an issue, kunts looks too much like nuts or knuts - 22/01/2018 08:09:52 PM 557 Views
Would you prefer a Knut? - 22/01/2018 10:55:09 PM 513 Views
Yes I like my internet memes and thus I do not want to be confused by that word sometimes directed - 23/01/2018 10:28:58 PM 499 Views
Yes, ask him - 24/01/2018 01:32:08 AM 521 Views
Totes I will ask him about Tot *NM* - 24/01/2018 09:49:45 PM 353 Views
Yes, about the meanings. Pronounced quite differently. - 25/01/2018 06:17:22 PM 624 Views
Scheisse. I did forget it. - 26/01/2018 05:24:21 PM 526 Views
You mean Scheiße? *NM* - 26/01/2018 06:49:26 PM 345 Views
No. I mean Scheisse. *NM* - 26/01/2018 07:15:21 PM 363 Views
*NM* - 26/01/2018 11:07:18 PM 415 Views
*NM* - 28/01/2018 02:15:03 AM 341 Views
all those k's.... - 22/01/2018 08:23:09 PM 501 Views
So . . . no Klondike bars or Kit Kats for you. - 22/01/2018 10:55:53 PM 603 Views
But it would look "fuking" stupid - 23/01/2018 01:30:15 AM 530 Views
All languages change - 23/01/2018 01:40:18 AM 508 Views
They change, but resistance is not futile. - 23/01/2018 02:10:17 AM 579 Views
Also, you're not talking about the language changing. You're talking about changing the language. - 23/01/2018 02:16:39 AM 592 Views
I am being a realist who understands that spellings change. Letters get dropped. Language evolves. - 23/01/2018 06:53:25 PM 644 Views
It is posts like this that remind me why you are my RAFO tree - 23/01/2018 10:29:53 PM 495 Views
Nope sadly he did not *NM* - 23/01/2018 10:30:09 PM 275 Views
What are you talking about here? - 24/01/2018 12:21:55 PM 546 Views
I am talking about Logograms - 24/01/2018 09:48:48 PM 532 Views
Evolution, not revolution - 23/01/2018 10:54:37 PM 645 Views

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