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Seems you already decided on some answers in advance, though. Legolas Send a noteboard - 03/02/2018 01:53:00 AM

View original postThat as you mentioned, we may never get the answer to...but there it is.


View original post Well, it is on the record that without that dossier, they wouldn't have pursued getting a FISA approval. That tells me that if there was anything else, it was not substantial enough to warrant the paperwork.

Do you have a link/source on that? I haven't seen that, but if so, yes, it makes these questions more pressing.
View original post One of those things that we probably would never know. Especially, since the best way to know that would be a compare/contrast study against other FISA documents completely unrelated (but in a similar vein).

Indeed. Sadly. People concerned with privacy and government overreach have been making noise about FISA for years, so if this incident could help to make the process less shady, that would be nice.
View original postWell, the first thing that comes to mind is that either someone had an ax to grind (regardless of who nominated them to the job), or they just signed it. I work in a GMP job, and I am constantly telling my team to read what they are signing. Don't just sign it because someone else signed it. Don't just assume that "everything was caught". I would suspect that there is at least a decent chance of this being the case here. I'm sure that there's at least some thought in the office that "It was approved before. This whole 90day renewal thing is a waste of time. It will stop when they find something." Given the media coverage of (what is already assumed is) collusion and obstruction of justice...

Yeah, I wouldn't buy that they did this by accident. It does show that the ongoing FBI investigation had enough substance that they didn't find it worth the risk/internal fuss to put an end to the surveillance. Of course, keep in mind that not only did Carter Page not join the Trump administration, but in fact he had left the campaign even before the FISA application (only just realized this myself - see my post below in the subthread with RT and AA). And you know how it goes in Trumpworld - once you're out of the team, Trump acts as if you were never really in his team and you never actually mattered.
View original postI don't know what to say man. Clueless? Lazy? Corrupt? Who knows. Either way, it demonstrates that there is something wrong with the entire way that this was handled, and the fact that there was so much pressure to keep it quiet is another symptom of the same disease.

It doesn't demonstrate that at all as far as I can see - like I said, it raises questions, sure, but it doesn't answer them.
View original postWhether the DNC or Clinton Campaign told him to submit it or not is neither here nor there. They paid him to do opposition research. That "research" is completely uncorroborated. It's not research. It's gossip. They paid a rumormonger to come up with something. It was taken as fact, and used to get secret surveillance of a US citizen. Next thing you know, it is taken as fact and broadcast the American Public as fact. It still serves the DNC & Clinton Campaign. It just pretty much cements Trump's whole "Drain the Swamp" platform...wouldn't you say?

I can't exactly claim to be an expert on intelligence gathering, but I know enough to realize that the process involves different categories of information with different degrees of reliability. The Trump partisans like to pretend that the dossier is about nothing but the scandalous sex stuff, but obviously there was a lot more to it, some parts more corroborated than others. When Steele decided to start sharing his information with the FBI, it was up to the FBI to corroborate and verify further. And yes, it definitely does matter whether he himself, having already a history as an accepted source of the FBI, made that decision or whether Clinton/the DNC ordered him to. If he made the decision himself without instructions from his client, then it matters a lot less who his client actually is - as in, the client paid him to gather the information, but he decided what to do with that information.
View original post The problem (as I stated before) that this isn't opposition research. It's gossip construction. It was taken as fact, and used to get something.

I'm not entirely sure who/what you refer to with the 'it was taken as fact', but if it refers to the FISA court, I'm pretty sure that those judges are aware that intelligence gathering or criminal investigations inevitably include degrees of certainty and uncertainty. Approving a wiretap on Carter Page doesn't mean at all that the judge believed every single thing said about him was a fact - just that the things said about him raised enough questions to make it worth the wiretap.
View original postYou are right. It brings up more questions then it answers. This entire memo goes to show that there is something going on...and one party in particular is fighting tooth and nail to not have it come out. That says something don't you think? This isn't about "protecting Trump". This is about hamstringing the Russia investigation (which is already tainted from the core). This is about the fact that rumors and gossip were taken as fact and used to spy on a US Citizen. There was no corroboration. The checks and balances built into the system didn't work. The motivations behind the entire issue were left out of the application, even though they are very much pertinent to the entire situation.

I'm not too sure how many checks and balances the FISA process ever actually had, so I'm not particularly shocked if it turns out that it wrongly violated the rights of an American citizen in this case as well. It's just that usually it's not this convenient for conservative partisans to be so critical about that process.



Edit:
Adding from a Politico article some quotes you may find interesting:

“As I have said repeatedly, I also remain 100 percent confident in Special Counsel Robert Mueller,” Rep. Trey Gowdy, an intel panel member, wrote on Twitter. “The contents of this memo do not — in any way — discredit his investigation.”

House Speaker Paul Ryan also remarked Thursday that he saw no connection between the memo and Rosenstein, even though it names him as having approved continued Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act warrants for the communications of onetime Trump adviser Carter Page without disclosing that Democrats funded some of the research the FBI used to justify the snooping.

“This does not implicate the Mueller investigation. This does not implicate the DAG,” Ryan said, referring to the deputy attorney general. “This is about us holding the system accountable and reviewing whether or not FISA abuses occur.”

This message last edited by Legolas on 03/02/2018 at 02:02:34 AM
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So that memo was released.... - 02/02/2018 06:59:35 PM 1108 Views
"God's in His heaven— All's right with the world!" - 02/02/2018 07:14:41 PM 642 Views
Just reading the memo is indeed the best approach, I just did too. - 02/02/2018 08:20:01 PM 672 Views
I find it hard to believe the Obama appointees in the DoJ did not know where the dossier came from *NM* - 02/02/2018 09:17:06 PM 324 Views
As do I. Was that supposed to have any relevance to my post? *NM* - 02/02/2018 09:34:57 PM 362 Views
Re: As do I. Was that supposed to have any relevance to my post? - 02/02/2018 10:37:21 PM 565 Views
Yes, you did misunderstand me then. - 03/02/2018 12:17:27 AM 593 Views
yes, that's makes sense. - 03/02/2018 09:41:46 AM 487 Views
It does bring up more questions... - 02/02/2018 10:53:01 PM 630 Views
Seems you already decided on some answers in advance, though. - 03/02/2018 01:53:00 AM 481 Views
With over 34,000 FISA applications just 12 (not 12,000 or 1200 or 120) were denied. - 03/02/2018 04:07:24 PM 642 Views
Correction: "just under", not "over" 34,000 - 03/02/2018 10:08:54 PM 569 Views
Bah! - 03/02/2018 11:53:05 PM 574 Views
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Those are the ones we have to watch! - 04/02/2018 12:48:49 AM 541 Views
He's the primary demographic for the 4Chans, isn't he? *NM* - 06/02/2018 09:15:47 PM 336 Views
This part was quite revealing - 02/02/2018 08:23:28 PM 518 Views
I do find it very telling how many members of the media are suddenly opposed to transparency - 02/02/2018 08:51:28 PM 511 Views
Ironic, right? - 02/02/2018 09:12:43 PM 471 Views
So you are saying the House Intelligence Committee SHOULD release Schiffs rebuttal of Nunes' lies? - 03/02/2018 03:58:13 AM 594 Views
I am for releasing all of it - 04/02/2018 12:28:57 AM 577 Views
You, Sen. Kennedy (R-LA) and NO ONE ELSE on the right. - 04/02/2018 07:41:17 AM 911 Views
To summarize..... - 02/02/2018 09:12:06 PM 544 Views
I seem to recall much incredulity when Trump claimed he was being wire tapped - 02/02/2018 09:15:14 PM 491 Views
Er. Let me see if I'm getting this right. - 02/02/2018 09:34:14 PM 548 Views
They did somehow tap Flynn - 02/02/2018 10:44:55 PM 503 Views
Keep in mind Sessions wanted Rosenstein to resign - 02/02/2018 11:28:52 PM 436 Views
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It was on a list of about 40 Sessions wanted fired. Probably becuase he is a lib *NM* - 04/02/2018 12:31:13 AM 357 Views
Sessions is a lib? Do you mean Libertarian? - 04/02/2018 07:57:45 AM 949 Views
Dear Joel, - 03/02/2018 04:31:18 AM 580 Views
I have - 03/02/2018 05:09:19 AM 501 Views
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well as long as you have an unnaamed source it must be true *NM* - 04/02/2018 01:05:36 AM 373 Views
What is your point? *NM* - 04/02/2018 01:53:37 AM 306 Views
What is yours? - 04/02/2018 04:30:51 PM 429 Views
The key issue is being ignored - 04/02/2018 04:35:32 PM 455 Views
Answer = Hell Yes - 04/02/2018 09:00:49 PM 458 Views

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