Re: Hm. You're right, it doesn't make sense that way.
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 19/11/2018 10:54:21 AM
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Off the top of my head, I would say, no way that the Avarri spoke Quenya, they spoke Sindarin and it's the Calaquendi who changed their language in Valinor (under influence of the Valar?). But if the Silmarillion states the opposite, then indeed that doesn't make sense.
Actually, IIRC, the Valar learned Quenya from the Eldar.
Off the top of my head, I would say, no way that the Avarri spoke Quenya, they spoke Sindarin and it's the Calaquendi who changed their language in Valinor (under influence of the Valar?). But if the Silmarillion states the opposite, then indeed that doesn't make sense.
And the two languages are so different that it's not really credible for them to be related at all and for one to be derived from the other - if Quenya is actually something the Calaquendi learned only in Valinor, then that could make sense, but again, I might be directly contradicting the text with that theory.
So far as I know. It's also possible I suppose that Quenya evolved a bit in Valinor, but again, there is the issue of how or why, because it's one or two generations! Even if they learned Quenya in Valinor, that was Finwe who learned, and then his kids, Feanor & Fingolfin and their own children who returned to Middle Earth, where they encountered Dad/Grandpa's old pal Elwe, who now goes by Elu Thingol and speaks a whole new language and bans theirs. Why did Finwe (and presumably Olwe & Ingwe, whose kinswomen married Finwe and his youngest son) totally learn a new tongue? Why did Elwe/Thingol and his wife, Melian, a Maia from Valinor, teach their daughter and allow their people to speak, an entirely different language that is unrecognizable as his birth speech or hers? Either Quenya is the original Elven tongue (and it seems to mean "Speech" as the original Elvish name for themselves is "Quendi" meaning 'those who speak' or something like that; so why would they make up a new language and call that "speech", like its the only one. It's like those isolated populations whose name for themselves means "people" or "humans". But if they found a second group of people and named THEM "people". "Speech" is an acceptable name for your only language. It makes no sense as one you develop later), in which case why did Thingol change, or it's got Valinor origins, in which case why did Melian change?
I do think that there is evidence in the Silmarillion of contact between the Sindar and later Noldor in Beleriand and the Avarri, though, although not clear how extensive that contact is.
But it's a bit later, I think. Like maybe after the Wars, some of them push east to explore or find new homes. Their place of origin was way east of the Misty Mountains, because that was the point at which the first group of Teleri under Lengwe, the Nandor, bailed. Then there is Eriador, between the Misty & Blue Mountains, and then Beleriand. There isn't even any mention of contact between the Laiquendi (led by Denethor, Lengwe's son) and the original Nandor.
That bit about the Avarri helping Men with the Elven languages could apply regardless if Quenya and Sindarin were closely related so that some knowledge of one already helps with learning the other - but that's not the case.
I wasn't sure about that, not knowing much about languages, but I didn't think they were.
In fairness, Gondor and Arnor were in regular contact until 'only' a 1000 or so years before the events of the LotR, as I recall. Not sure about the Dalemen. And the Men of the east and south of Middle-Earth do speak different languages, right?
Yeah that's true.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Hey, wait just a minute, Tolkien
17/11/2018 01:10:09 AM
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Hm. You're right, it doesn't make sense that way.
19/11/2018 08:07:22 AM
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Re: Hm. You're right, it doesn't make sense that way.
19/11/2018 10:54:21 AM
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Okay, I rechecked the relevant passages in the Silmarillion, seems I'm quite wrong.
19/11/2018 06:03:53 PM
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Its been a while, but going from memory...
19/11/2018 03:03:11 PM
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A wizard did it.
20/11/2018 04:14:46 PM
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Re: A wizard did it.
22/11/2018 05:37:29 PM
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That's total bullshit
25/11/2018 08:43:18 PM
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I'm sure things are different in Ignoranthickville, where you make your hobbit hole...
26/11/2018 01:24:46 AM
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OK Tom, Oll Korrect
26/11/2018 05:17:26 AM
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People change
23/11/2018 06:56:36 PM
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I don't know if that's the right comparison though.
24/11/2018 06:26:36 PM
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