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Re: The Christian concept of soul, maybe. But RJ was clearly not sourcing his ideas from there... Cannoli Send a noteboard - 03/03/2019 07:15:08 PM


If you can borrow temporarily from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth using the One Power to create Nym (and Chora trees), that means the One Power can interact with and affect souls. There's no two ways about this.
No, it doesn't. That's like saying technology can create souls because we have test-tube babies.
The question is, can the One Power affect souls. Clearly, it can.
And Jordan did not answer that. He did not say the makers drew them from the pool or that the One Power is still used to bring forth each generation of Trollocs. That Trollocs reproduce on their own suggests what I said before, that the makers of those creatures merely simulated the conditions under which sapient life begins. There is no direct evidence that they reached into the soul pool, grabbed on and stuffed it into a body they made. They used the One Power to mess with the biological processes and make their constructs come out the way they wanted.
Likewise, Tel'Aran'Rhiod is just a different state of existence.

No. It is the ur-state of existence. As Verin explained to Egwene, it is the third constant, along with the Creator and the Dark One. To me, TAR is like the base substrate of creation. If your soul is able to project yourself there, you have Creator like powers (limited by your strength in the Dream). "Reality" is, basically, the Creators dream, melded to TAR (or dreamshard, as Brandon Sanderson called it. Stupid as that name is, I'll stick with it for convenience). Rand, in Shayol Ghul, was creating fresh Dreamshards in his contest with the Dark One, both of them re-writing the rules of reality as distinct from what the Creator has set.



Nope. RJ has said explicitly that it is their souls that go to TAR, awaiting rebirth.

They go there in their non-corporeal bodies, or live in T'A'R bodies, whatever. You can't see a soul. If you can, it isn't and RJ is misusing the word to describe something else.
What one sees in Tel'Aran'Rhiod is a real thing,

It explicitly is not. Trying to change what the books to fit your worldview is a little bizarre, Cannoli. So what is in T'A'R is not real? How so?



We do. You're just ignoring it to make it fit your view of what souls must be. Which is deeply puzzling, since according to your beliefs, rebirth shouldn't be happening at all, yet that fundamental aspect of WoT you seem to have no problem acknowledging.
Yeah, it is stupid, but it's what we have to go with. But if souls aren't souls, the people in WoT are not people.

How do you figure that? The soul enters the world. It is affected by it. From how it deals with its experience, and depending on whether it achieves the self-knowledge to know it is in a dream, it is released from the cycle of rebirth, achieves salvation.

Because that's all SELF-directed changes, not externally imposed.
Seems massively simple to me. Not sure why "nothing really does matter" if the soul can be affected by reality.

Because the point is that you grow and change into what you will. If someone else can alter that, your own efforts are rendered meaningless.
I'd think the reverse is true. If nothing in reality can affect the soul, then what's the point of life, or, in the case of WoT, rebirth? Your argument would fit Ishamael's view, maybe, but not how most in WoT see things, or how RJ saw things for the world he created.
Well, Ishamael is closer to Buddha's view than anyone else in WoT, he just didn't see the solution that Gautama did.
I do not see why the soul being something the One Power can affect is in any way affecting these things.
Because it means someone can change who and what you are.

RJ's answer above contradicts this. If a soul can be corrupted so it can only be reborn as a Trolloc, then, clearly, the Dark One, at the least, can change your will.
We don't know the process of corruption. It's at least possible in the story (and only possible in reality) if the person is made corrupt by their own thoughts, actions and choices, and so becomes susceptible to that sort of transformation.

I see it the same way. I just don't see why any of this means the One Power cannot affect the soul.
It really was a sidebar in my stream of consciousness as I wrote my original answer. I was thinking about what the Dark One could do to one's soul to make them into a Gray Man and I came to the conclusion that he couldn't, or it's not a soul.
Setting aside the factual evidence against that, I also don't see any obvious philosophical issues with the very essence of Creation affecting souls, especially in a world where salvation lies in the soul realizing it is part of the whole, and thus part of saidin and saidar.

I don't think the One Power is the essence of creation, or there'd be more of a will power component to it. I like your explanation of T'A'R better for that. If the Power had something to do with how Creation was made, it would be used more like people do things in T'A'R. I think the Power is a primal force made to MOVE creation, like fuel or lubricant or blood, but it's not the mechanism of Creation, or the creative force of reality. If for no other reason than you can't really create stuff with it, only shape what's already created. That makes it just another normal thing. Given how the One Power compares and relates to the Shadow, it is not the Creator's equivalent of the True Power, or if it is, then the Dark One is missing a balancing force and he is NOT the antithesis of the Creator. The Creator made the world and moved on and did not leave his own personal toys for the inhabitants to use. The One Power is of the world, not the Creator (except in the sense that everything he made is of the him, including the world & One Power).
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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I wonder if Grey Men were a "first step" for making gholam. *NM* - 27/02/2019 06:09:21 AM 448 Views
If there is any connection between them & Shadowspawn, it is as the inspiration for Shaidar Haran - 27/02/2019 01:57:50 PM 368 Views
On the OP and souls. - 01/03/2019 07:05:06 AM 355 Views
IMO, that stuff all affects physical or metaphysical aspects, but not the soul itself. - 01/03/2019 01:31:20 PM 347 Views
Re: IMO, that stuff all affects physical or metaphysical aspects, but not the soul itself. - 02/03/2019 09:47:00 AM 362 Views
Re: IMO, that stuff all affects physical or metaphysical aspects, but not the soul itself. - 02/03/2019 12:26:20 PM 349 Views
One quick issue.... - 02/03/2019 08:07:03 PM 334 Views
Re: One quick issue.... - 02/03/2019 09:26:27 PM 342 Views
Ok, that's a fair distinction. - 03/03/2019 03:45:13 AM 330 Views
The OP can interact with souls... - 02/03/2019 03:57:36 PM 346 Views
No it can't, or RJ is misusing the term "soul." - 02/03/2019 09:13:34 PM 480 Views
The Christian concept of soul, maybe. But RJ was clearly not sourcing his ideas from there... - 03/03/2019 06:45:13 PM 368 Views
Re: The Christian concept of soul, maybe. But RJ was clearly not sourcing his ideas from there... - 03/03/2019 07:15:08 PM 346 Views
Oh, and... - 03/03/2019 08:30:06 PM 347 Views
Doesn't true death in TAR preclude rebirth? - 03/03/2019 06:58:29 PM 338 Views
That's Hopper's opinion, regarding wolves. - 03/03/2019 07:16:27 PM 339 Views

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