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Re: You're wrong on Moiraine Cannoli Send a noteboard - 19/09/2021 12:49:11 AM


But that’s your idiotic and mean-minded interpretation of the story. The writers would have to be tragically moronic to try and make that nightmare into the TV show.

RJ was telling a story where there is no one hero. Even the Prophesied Savior is most certainly not solely enough, and needs a host of others to guide him and push him to be what he needs to be. And even then, he’d have failed but for the efforts, the expertise, the bravery and the self-sacrifice of others. In fact, Rand isn’t truly ready to face the Dark One till he truly internalizes this truth.


Yeah, sure. IDK what that has to do with Moiraine more or less being wrong all the time, especially when she argued with Rand. Moiraine is one of the people who had the hardest time learning that lesson, with regard to herself and Rand. She believed she was the best and all-knowing expert and he was just a dumb rube, without taking into consideration that he had exactly as much experience handling the apocalypse as she did, and had exactly as much insight into what was needed for the Dragon Reborn as she did. Rand always listens to Moiraine, and he accepts her advice when she has expertise, and he WANTS her to tell him stuff, to educate him and explain things. Moiraine does not want to do that, she wants to make the calls and wants Rand to do what she says, rather than give him the knowledge to make his own decisions.

I honestly wondered after reading New Spring, why the Pattern/Wheel bothered throwing up the ta'veren and Wondergirls and not let Lan and Moiraine get on with saving the world. And the answer is, because they are too compromised to be effective. Moiraine has absorbed too much of the views of the White Tower and her family, and Lan is burdened with the weight of everyone's specific expectations which he has no way to fulfil. They are great with what they have, but they are rather handicapped, which is why Rand & co are necessary, but Moiraine takes a long time to get it. I don't think she really 100% makes the leap until her captivity with the Finns. She tried in tFoH, but she wasn't all the way there, she was still thinking in terms of control, and while she was doing her level best to train and prepare Rand, she was still handicapped by her background and limited perspective. Ironically, she makes the same mistake she thinks Thom is making in Tear, giving Rand a too-narrow focus on governing, when that's not his job.

Rand is there to be an inspiration and a leader, not a politician and an administrator. The political situation in each country he takes over improves dramatically when Rand leaves it alone and lets someone else, like Berelain, Gregorin, Dobraine, Darlin or Elayne rule in his place. When he is running a country and dealing with nobles, he is frustrated and balked and frequently fails. If you want to be strictly nit-picky, the ONLY thing we see Moiraine, the alleged Mentor Figure teach Rand is politics, and that's what he fails at. He might be good in a particular confrontation, but how did his performance on entering Cairhien divert Meilan's scheming? How did his plotting in Altara prevent the Cairhienin and Tairens from plotting together? How did his owning Dyelin's faction during their first audience get them on his side? None of those things worked, because it's not Rand's job, not because Moiraine is a shit teacher. It's the same thing with Lan. The sword training is not all that important, and like the political training, it's mostly something that gets Rand in trouble. As Lan pointed out before Cairhien, it's not his job to be dueling enemy warriors, just like Moiraine correctly saw that it was not his job to be governing Tear.

The real effects of Lan and Moiraine with Rand are in their moral leadership, mentoring or examples they set. Lan largely does very well here, except for his ill-advised remarks on the docks in Cairhien, when he was suffering a traumatic mental affliction. Moiraine does not so well. There is a reason Cadsuane numbers her among the Aes Sedai whose treatment of Rand has pushed him toward the descent Cadsuane tries to arrest. Moiraine knew she was dealing with the prophesied leader and champion, but treated him like a minion, kept unnecessary secrets, and denied, rejected or ignored his (and the other Two Rivers folk's) agency. When he needed her, she left him alone and when asked her for information or advice, her response is generally calculated to keep him dependent on her. Her actions ramp up when he achieves power on his own, and she takes actions specifically to isolate him and even gaslighting him to make him question his own judgment and she tries to interfere with his leadership and undermine his authority with his followers.

As for Siuan, nearly every action we know of her taking as Amyrlin is disastrous, and has a pattern of micromanagement, and her subsequent actions after escaping Tar Valon are also epically horrible. Siuan's role is to be the bad mentor Egwene has to outgrow and reject to find her own way. Siuan, while, again, teaching Egwene useful things, feeds into her worst instincts, and while she does not lie to her, her counsel is slanted by her own distorted perceptions an prejudices. Just her last thought about Elaida before the deposing committee demonstrates why she needs to fall and is not a fit Amyrlin to lead the Tower at Tarmon Gaidon, and stands in direct contrast to Egwene's consistently superior attitude on the issue.


I’m sure it twists your balls in a knot, but for a lot of readers, this is an ensemble of heroes,

Criticizing ONE character does not, in fact, demonstrate a rejection of the principle of the ensemble.
and we know of the immense amount of courage and heorism Siuan and Moiraine display, especially in the early books, as we learn more later in the series.

I do not question their courage or good intentions, I question their judgment and priorities. I honestly believe Moiraine, at least, is not doing things for her own glory or power, but that she honestly, if mistakenly, believes her Tower-informed perception is the best. But Jordan is clearly showing between the lines how wrong she is. Her forcing the Prophecy she quotes to fit her prescribed course of action, her errant assessments of Rand's friends during her PoV chapter, and things that would later prove grave mistakes, like not taking to heart the examples the Wise Ones give of how foreknowledge of events is flawed or wanting Rand to depend on Callandor to conquer Illian or calling dismissing as unimportant his trade deals and thinking his relief operation is a catastrophic disaster and possible indication of his turning to the Shadow. Rand's greatest disaster, greatest moment of hubris in Jordan's books, is when he finally takes Moiraine's advise after the fact and tries to use Callandor as she had wanted. And that was after Rand had considerably leveled up in channeling and was merely facing damane, not a Forsaken who is a defensive expert. You might say Moiraine had no way of knowing that stuff, which is correct. But all that means is that she is not really the expert she presents herself as. Physicians in ancient Greece and the Middle Ages WERE experts on anatomy compared to the average layman, but a dumb peasant who challenged their belief that the heart is the center of the nervous system would not be wrong.


There’s no reason to not actually show that front and center in the show. We’re not seeing the show from Rand’s perspective, where Moiraine seems like an all knowing antagonist, because of his frankly appalingly narrow worldview, which you swallowed whole without a critical thought in your brain.

You're the one who swallowed whole without criticism Moiraine's self-asserted supremacy, Egwene's uninformed adulation and Rand's internalization of Moiraine's passive-aggressive guilt-trip farewell letter, and the irrelevant datum of her having been the one to pull the trigger on two Forsaken. As you say, no one does it without help, and Moiraine figuratively shot both of them in the back while they were distracted with the main character. And in one of those cases she "saved" Rand from a dangerous scenario she set up and in the other, she was only free to take the shot, because Rand defied her at the beginning of the book and went off without her. You're the one who swallows whole the Watsonian perception that she was the hero of each situation without critically examining the circumstances and context. You are the one who won't accept any criticism of your heroines, who sees every attempt to point out mistakes or instances illustrating thematic problems as a sexism-driven attack on the character as a whole.
Moiraine is heroic. And imperfect.
I seem to be the only one willing to point out specifics of the latter quality.
As are they all. And I’m damn glad the show gets that.

I have yet to see evidence that the show gets 50% of that.

In the LotR/WoT comparison, Moiraine is not Gandalf, she's Boromir. Some Boromir fans might say the movies slighted him by leaning hard on his mistakes, and cutting little details, like his standing up for the Rorhirrm when the Council wonders if they have signed on with Sauron, or his stature as among the best the race of Man produces. OTOH, they gave him a lot of human moments, and showed on-screen impressive actions of his in combat, and foreshadowed his protection of the hobbits as much as they did his stumble over the ring. So even if they get details wrong with Moiraine, I'm confident it is within their capacity to get the overall picture right.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Cannoli on 19/09/2021 at 12:57:16 AM
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