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Re: Show and Tell Cannoli Send a noteboard - 22/09/2022 02:24:59 AM


You, Cannoli are probably going to disagree with what I am about to say

I am curious as to why you would think that.
But blending the streams of many texts, and see if there is something from the combination … (Alicent Hightower and Rhaenyra Targaryen
1) Tell, from the Books. Alicent is a chaste companion of Jaehaerys I Targaryen, much like Rhaenyra is the cupbearer of her father. This happens in 101 AC when Alicent is 13.
2) Tell, from actor interviews, Alicent Hightower and Rhaenyra are not just best friends but there is something more intimate between them. A form “of love” perhaps platonic, perhaps romantic, yet not physically consummated.

I don't count the after-interviews. If you didn't put it on the screen, you've failed in your job as motion picture producers, you don't get to explain it afterwards. But I got the friendship thing from their initial depiction in a physically familiar context. I didn't even realize that was supposed to be Alicent at first, since the only mention of friendly relations between them was the public good face they put on at Alicent's wedding.
3) Shown, Rhaenyra’s mother dies / is murdered depending on one’s perception of the ambiguity. Yet it does not really matter for the force of the kings word is the force of law and power.

There is also the question of whether it is murder if the action is taken to save another's life. Possibly on the part of the maester, if he was telling what he thought was a necessary lie to get past the king's dithering, but from Viserys' perspective, he was told that saving Aemma was not an option, so he made the choice to save the baby.

On a personal note, I don't believe there is one right answer to the save the mother/save the baby dilemma, so long as the solution is not to directly murder one to save the other. Perform a procedure with the direct intent of fixing a problem endangering the life of one, that will likely or even certainly kill the other - fine (e.g. an ectopic pregnancy). Kill the one to make saving the other more convenient or easy, nope. At the very least, in Aemma's case, she should have had the final say, not Viserys. Morally speaking, not necessarily according to Westeros' often fucked up practices.


Daemon loses his birthright and Rhaenyra becomes the heir.
4) Shown, Rhaenyra does not take her mother’s death well and does distance as a form of cope. Likewise Viserys does not cope well. Alicent remains warm and open and is also pushed into this relationship by her father. All of this is natural and expected in a feudal society, soft power games and manipulations are the norm and can be seen as virtuous in the eyes of some.

I alluded to as much in the OP at the 8:52 & 9:22 time stamps.
5) Conjecture of me, Rhaenyra does not take this well, she senses how incestous this is where her best friend, someone she loved and saw close (like family) is now comforting her father and her father is not comforting her and vice versa. Alicent and Viserys get married in 106 AC aka 5 years after these two became friends and there was a form of comfort Rhaenyra was okay with when Alicent read to her great-grandfather, which is different than her father.

Also, one minute, Viserys is anointing her as heir and the next, marrying a young and presumably fertile woman who could produce male replacements. The one gesture she gets from her father is one he is revoking for his own self-indulgence (even if one subscribes to the implication that he simply married Alicent for companionship and to end the attempts to induce him to wed another, rather than lust or a desire for more children).
6) Conjecture, does this explain Rhaenyra and Daemon? Yes it is fucked up on dozens of levels, yes it is Targaryen tradition of old.
The tradition speaks mostly of brother to sister. The only other avuncular pairing known, that of Rhaenys' parents, was between a couple with a single digit age difference. There was never an adult-child power dynamic between Jocelyn & Aemon as there is between Daemon and Rhaenyra.
But another layer (not the only layer) is if Rhaenyra on an unconscious / barely aware of level, like an instinct feels court is inherently manipulative, and she lost her only individual love and support system (she feels estranged from her best friend and father, her mother is dead, and we have not seen her bond with any staff or other lords and ladies), than Rhaenyra choosing to transgress, choosing a toxic relationship with Daemon and Cole of the Kingsguard is a natural as in a common response. It is an unconscious desire to have more agency, to choose the nature of her fate, even if it’s fucked up on a dozen of levels. Yes it is going to get everyone burned though.

Absolutely. Kind of the corollary to Chris Rock's "I ain't saying it's right...but I understand." I understand what she is feeling and sympathize with that position, even if I utterly reject her chosen method of acting out. What I like is that the show is not trying to make her out to be a heroine or these decisions as a sign of strength, but rather is putting her selfishness on the screen as a consistent character trait. She is someone who does not set out to be villain or have, for example, Cersei's solipsistic identification of her personal gratification with the right thing to do, but she still is acting to gratify herself first without thinking of the effect of her actions. As we see in the prior episode, during the courtship scene, how without any malice on her part, she provokes a fight that leaves a man dead and adds another chapter to an infamous feud between two powerful families, not only engendering bad feelings toward herself, her family and their regime, but also disrupting the peace of the realm.
What she should be doing is finding the demand for duty or the demand from love from the only one who can meet it out which is her father. But of course Viserys is a self destructive fool who does not understands demands at all, and to be king means there are infinite demands of duty and love put on you and as the role of sovereign one must figure out how to navigate that.

Yes.
7) Conjecture Alicent who loves Rhaenyra (does not matter if it’s platonic or romantic) does not understand how the two of them are estranged and she is making similar mistakes as Viserys (yet doing it better), like it or not her father manipulated her into becoming queen, and once she is the queen mother of a son one has to play the perverse game of what makes the monarchy go round. Alicent wants to have it both ways, not realizing that the world will never allow it. One can not choose both love and duty if they demand opposite things, yet these desires are natural, and in fact if we did not desire we would never have agency in the first place.

I would call that her arc for this episode, making the decision to move forward from this mentality, to actively begin maneuvering for her family's betterment. This is what Martin was referring to when he quotes Faulkner about "the human heart at war with itself". The war is decided for Alicent in this episode, upon coming to believe that Rhaenyra has manipulated her affections and tricked her, she has begun to see her husband as the enabler in this. Last episode, he was sexually imposing on her and then persecuting her friend, so even though he turned out to be right, the bad feelings are still there, and rather than run to his aid when he shows weakness upon his return, she lets his maladies become a source of repulsion rather than an inspiration for empathy. So she rejects continuing in the thankless task of trying to keep together her made-family of husband, son and step-daughter, where both husband and step-daughter have not been receptive to her efforts and even victimized her. Instead, she falls back on her birth family, because from a certain point of view, her father has not let her down. She might not like his actions, but he made a case about the good of the realm, and by their society's standards, throwing her at the king is to her benefit, whatever her personal feelings about the situation. So we see her wearing a color significant to House Hightower, timing her entrance to show up her husband, publicly greeting her uncle, the Lord of Hightower, etc. She might have been invited to the feast as Viserys' wife, but she's acting as Hobart's niece & Otto's daughter.
Speculation, thus we are going to see in future episodes, more and more tragic misunderstandings between two women who love each other, their hearts are going to become hard and they are going to learn to hate the people who they once cared for.

9) Speculation, we are already seeing both queens turning to their respective Strong boys as confident. So much mirroring between Alicent and Rhaenyra.


Complete with a WoT-style misunderstanding. Bear in mind, Larys' version was not true in facts, although the essential point of Rhaenyra's inappropriate sexual activity was not, and she got lucky when she turned to Cole for confirmation when he was feeling used, rejected and guilty.



I feel all of this to be true, but feel free to disagree with this, especially since this is fiction. For example I omitted the mushroom story that Daemon had sex with and perhaps raped Alicent prior to her marriage with Viserys. One should not trust what Mushroom says in Fire and Blood, especially since he is as now omitted from the show.
Eh, I think he gets some stuff right. He's more of a literary device than a character, sort of necessary given the narrative conceit, because only an unreliable and sensationalist Watsonian author would reveal the true things Mushroom claims. At least some of Rhaenyra's breakup with Cole is drawn from Mushroom's version of the inciting incident.
Likewise Mushroom is also a literary device of the Maesters

I would actually call him a device of Martin.
used to attack anyone they do not like in Fire and Blood presenting such characters like Daemon in the most negative live. Yes Daemon is an asshole, but there is ambiguity there, but Mushroom turns him into an over the top Disney villain as a form of propaganda. Thus I feel we can safely be skeptical of such a stories, yet we should also remember Fire and Blood is also a propaganda document of the Maesters and others. Show and Tell Afterall!

Mushroom appears to have actually existed and wrote a book. I don't think he's supposed to be an in-universe fake source for slanders. I think they might instead choose to include the worst bits of Mushroom's writings regardless of their belief in their veracity, in order to present the worst picture, or present him as the source of things with which they disagree, so they can refute his sensationalist account as obviously nonsense, while ignoring/discrediting more grounded claims that contradict their narrative, by lumping them in with Mushroom's hyperbole. As in "Oh, you believe that Rhaenyra did X? Well, that comes from Mushroom. Stop reading that type of bullshit and stick to serious histories, or better yet, leave it to real scholars..." even if other reputable sources also make the same claim.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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