Active Users:408 Time:01/05/2025 10:09:41 PM
Re: explanation Isaac Send a noteboard - 06/08/2013 09:47:35 AM

View original postThere are a few reasons why I have not posted much yet:


View original post1) I always have trouble with the first day. I have no clue what to do or say. In the flavoured games that I participated in I can say something about the theme, but without that I feel even more lost that usual

Day 1's are a nightmare, that's why I always prod mods to put in clues and mini-games for day 1. If it makes you feel better I think everyone hates Day 1. I know I do, shoving games forward on day 1 has contributed to making me a routine night action magnet, NK target, and perpetual suspect #1. Admittedly it is not the only reason but it is a big factor in it. There's a very direct correlation between player activity and night action usage.
View original post2) Last game I tried to push the game forward. This wasn't the best of tactics as it resulted in me spilling the beans on my character (as the only player) and almost got lynched the first day. Another reason why I keep low at the moment. I wait and see and leave it to more experienced players to come up with more or less reasonable first day-solutions.

Instead we lynched Beet, who was a scummer. Walking the razor's edge is half the fun of the game, for me anyway.


View original postAs I think I am not the only one with this kind of explanation, besides the persons who are or have been RBIRL I think this strategy Isaac proposed, is not very valuable. It still is a covert random lynch.

But it isn't random at all, the logic is simple. We lynch people, on the surface, for scummiest behavior, but ultimately our goal is to try to nail the scum while expending the minimum assets. A good townie tries to aim as many bullets at the scum as possible while minimizing the odds of a townie dying and minimizing the damage to the town. This is why a vanilla Day 1 claim is considered anti-town, it does not help the town because it is either true or it isn't, if true it gives the scum better odds of killing a roled player, if false then we have to activate the Lie-Lynch policy. So anything that harms the town's chances at victory is anti-town, and anything that enhances it is pro-town, and in the absence of a good specific suspect the town has only 3 options:

1) No Lynch - but most of the players consider this to be anti-town
2) Random Lynch - But a true random lynch is anti-game, it is just tossing a die.
3) Minimize possible damage to the town by selecting a target who is as likely to be scum or roled as anyone else, but if town is acting in the most anti-town or least pro-town fashion, minimizing damage to the town.

There's more to play then role powers, we need investigation, deduction, insight, prosecution and defense, etc and those can only be observed via what people post, more we know that the scum are most strategically aided by silence. Even I consider it so, I just consider silence anti-game and don't use it, but it definitely is advantageous. So silence by a townie aids the scum because it allows them to minimize their own risk by matching it. The scum who prefer to be talkative typically are steering the mood and agenda anyway, and having done that a lot I can say it is much easier to do if other people aren't out their trying to steer and object. When many players are quiet then some of the scum can hide form sight and exposure and the stronger ones can steer the ship. So silence is anti-town and thus not a 'random lynch' at all. Not just because it minimizes losses but also because it often prods players into action.

It's important to understand that as frustrating as Day 1 is for townies, it is more so for the scum, this is their most powerful yet most vulnerable time. Every question, every line of attack, has a chance of toppling them before they've been able to meet and speak. Whole lines of future maneuver can be clipped out by a single remark from a scummer on day 1 even if they survive un-lynched and unsuspected. The clever scum get together on night 1 and create a grand plan and fallbacks and means of warning each other covertly during the day, they can act as a group and find each other's overlooked errors or messups. But not until night 1. They're weakest now and that's why pressing hard on day 1 is vital.

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift.
- Albert Einstein

King of Cairhien 20-7-2
Chancellor of the Landsraad, Archduke of Is'Mod
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Mafia 32 - No Fancy Title - Day 1 - 28/07/2013 06:46:40 PM 2909 Views
Present *NM* - 28/07/2013 07:52:29 PM 769 Views
Reporting in *NM* - 28/07/2013 09:50:47 PM 743 Views
Here. *NM* - 28/07/2013 10:42:26 PM 776 Views
Present! *NM* - 28/07/2013 11:03:03 PM 811 Views
I stand ready. *NM* - 29/07/2013 01:36:27 AM 775 Views
Helloooooo Players! *NM* - 29/07/2013 01:54:16 AM 761 Views
So, where to begin? *NM* - 29/07/2013 02:43:48 AM 771 Views
Use lube, this is my first time! *NM* - 29/07/2013 08:26:59 AM 746 Views
I loled *NM* - 29/07/2013 10:31:08 AM 783 Views
Just because of this comment I know he'll fit right in. - 01/08/2013 10:38:01 AM 1126 Views
Fox is being triggerhappy. *NM* - 01/08/2013 06:08:21 PM 767 Views
It's always fun on day 1! *NM* - 01/08/2013 06:37:26 PM 763 Views
RBIRL from Tuesday to Sunday - 29/07/2013 01:06:35 PM 1187 Views
I'm RBIRL from friday to sunday, myself - 29/07/2013 02:10:19 PM 1294 Views
RBIRL from Wednesday to Saturday. - 29/07/2013 02:18:47 PM 1196 Views
I'm joining the RBIRL train - 31/07/2013 01:50:55 PM 1182 Views
Present *NM* - 29/07/2013 02:53:40 PM 789 Views
apparently we got no fancy fantasy theme, but straight Mafia *NM* - 29/07/2013 03:18:18 PM 752 Views
I'm actually kinda glad. I think it was getting too...complicated for me. - 29/07/2013 03:48:33 PM 1222 Views
Agreed, but I would imagine Bergioyn might have some twists in store for us. - 29/07/2013 09:52:30 PM 1151 Views
Eh, Let's just go. IT WAS YOU THAT DID IT, WASN'T IT *NM* - 29/07/2013 10:56:49 PM 733 Views
It was you that done it, now own up! *NM* - 29/07/2013 11:41:40 PM 763 Views
Okay! I admit it! It was me! Oh wait... were you talking to or him? *NM* - 30/07/2013 02:31:30 AM 614 Views
Vote: Hobo - 30/07/2013 02:43:15 AM 1193 Views
Re: Vote: Hobo - 01/08/2013 12:27:15 AM 1196 Views
Re: Vote: Hobo - 01/08/2013 10:44:27 AM 1260 Views
I don't think it was - 01/08/2013 12:50:24 PM 1195 Views
If I remember correctly he had some dastatdly plot to catch the scum. - 01/08/2013 04:32:51 PM 1167 Views
He was very unclear on tha tpoint after the fact - 01/08/2013 11:27:00 PM 1253 Views
No, his plan was actually pretty good. - 06/08/2013 01:00:31 AM 1301 Views
How is that a good plan? - 06/08/2013 06:37:24 AM 1355 Views
Well, believe it or not, I swear it wasn't me this time. I blame s *NM* - 30/07/2013 02:07:38 PM 771 Views
it was probably Isaac but in the end he'll win the game *NM* - 30/07/2013 05:37:07 PM 748 Views
Rule #1: Isaac wins *NM* - 30/07/2013 06:18:38 PM 818 Views
Rules are made to be broken. *NM* - 30/07/2013 06:51:38 PM 770 Views
But is this rule able to be broken? *NM* - 30/07/2013 06:54:22 PM 759 Views
Sure. Last time he lost was game 29. *NM* - 30/07/2013 09:32:45 PM 732 Views
Surely you recall the Marvel[ous] Siege? You were mason buddy - 01/08/2013 12:14:47 AM 1189 Views
I vaguely remember the Marvel game, but not any specifics... *NM* - 04/08/2013 09:55:24 PM 738 Views
I do... - 05/08/2013 04:25:10 AM 1169 Views
Rule #2: Isaac is always suspected, but not lynched. *NM* - 30/07/2013 10:32:57 PM 767 Views
Isaac is like the German Soccer team in this. - 01/08/2013 10:45:39 AM 1077 Views
Re: Isaac is like the German Soccer team in this. - 01/08/2013 12:18:52 PM 1266 Views
(here) *NM* - 29/07/2013 11:03:26 PM 727 Views
Vote: Sacrilicious Toast - 30/07/2013 12:56:04 PM 1262 Views
Re: Vote: Sacrilicious Toast - 31/07/2013 09:19:11 AM 1310 Views
Re: Vote: Sacrilicious Toast - 01/08/2013 10:50:16 AM 1146 Views
Re: Vote: Sacrilicious Toast - 01/08/2013 12:11:33 AM 1165 Views
Activate! *NM* - 31/07/2013 03:03:50 AM 751 Views
Not too bad that you waited with the game, Berg - 01/08/2013 10:35:51 AM 1163 Views
Re: Not too bad that you waited with the game, Berg - 01/08/2013 11:06:23 AM 1157 Views
Okay, getting moving (Table) - 01/08/2013 11:45:30 PM 1282 Views
Yes, No, No. *NM* - 02/08/2013 02:32:52 AM 733 Views
Yes, No, No - 02/08/2013 08:54:12 AM 1197 Views
Re: Yes, No, No - 02/08/2013 09:50:24 AM 1129 Views
Yeah, my name's a real one too, just not logically related to anything in the game. *NM* - 02/08/2013 07:17:42 PM 727 Views
Same here. *NM* - 04/08/2013 09:54:10 PM 715 Views
Yes, No, No *NM* - 02/08/2013 01:03:24 PM 702 Views
Yes, no, no *NM* - 02/08/2013 08:26:52 PM 655 Views
yes, no, no *NM* - 03/08/2013 01:10:00 AM 738 Views
would be nice if one player answered Yes, Yes. Yes now: Lie = lynch *NM* - 03/08/2013 09:12:07 AM 714 Views
Well I'm reasonably sure some of them will either answer other then yes, no, no or lie - 03/08/2013 12:29:34 PM 1192 Views
Yes. No. No. - 04/08/2013 09:02:49 AM 1086 Views
Re: Yes. No. No. - 04/08/2013 11:19:03 AM 1154 Views
Yes, No, No *NM* - 03/08/2013 11:06:41 PM 745 Views
Yes, no, no. Also, I'm back. *NM* - 04/08/2013 09:52:11 PM 608 Views
Yes, no, no. Also, I'm back. *NM* - 04/08/2013 09:52:47 PM 704 Views
Dangit, I hate when I double post. *NM* - 04/08/2013 09:53:29 PM 753 Views
Yes, No No *NM* - 05/08/2013 03:28:03 AM 714 Views
Sorry I didn't have anything new to add... *NM* - 05/08/2013 03:29:28 AM 695 Views
Yes, No, No. *NM* - 06/08/2013 12:46:10 AM 681 Views
I might as well Unvote before I forget - 02/08/2013 03:32:43 PM 1121 Views
EBWOP - 02/08/2013 03:33:23 PM 1101 Views
Vote: Isaac - 03/08/2013 05:09:47 AM 1222 Views
Re: Vote: Isaac - 03/08/2013 07:32:48 AM 1133 Views
The "... and people die" part is probably accurate though *NM* - 03/08/2013 12:32:40 PM 711 Views
Correlation does not equal causation . *NM* - 03/08/2013 05:42:30 PM 747 Views
Precisely *NM* - 04/08/2013 11:22:52 AM 704 Views
Re: Vote: Isaac - 05/08/2013 08:31:03 PM 1221 Views
Re: Vote: Isaac - 06/08/2013 06:40:24 AM 1161 Views
Baaaack~ - 03/08/2013 11:26:57 PM 1168 Views
Although interesting, the questions don't seem to be adding much to the info - 05/08/2013 07:03:07 PM 1212 Views
Well - 05/08/2013 07:25:22 PM 1126 Views
That is correct - 05/08/2013 07:35:24 PM 1139 Views
Oh yeah, you're right - 05/08/2013 09:42:23 PM 1201 Views
Re: Oh yeah, you're right - 05/08/2013 10:09:48 PM 1194 Views
Re: Oh yeah, you're right - 05/08/2013 10:20:02 PM 1242 Views
I posted I was back.... NLRBIRL *NM* - 05/08/2013 10:25:58 PM 676 Views
Yeah, I missed that. Sorry *NM* - 06/08/2013 03:13:11 AM 725 Views
What's the NL for? RBIRL Real Busy in Real Life, NL=? - 06/08/2013 08:56:16 AM 1165 Views
Oh, duh, "No Longer" RBIRL *NM* - 06/08/2013 08:57:15 AM 699 Views
Yup *NM* - 06/08/2013 01:00:31 PM 742 Views
would be a very awkward abbreviation - 07/08/2013 10:05:17 AM 1139 Views
Re: Although interesting, the questions don't seem to be adding much to the info - 05/08/2013 08:26:01 PM 1277 Views
Agreed. Random lynches seem like a last resort to me. - 05/08/2013 08:55:59 PM 1198 Views
Now that you mention it, appearance might indeed be useful. - 06/08/2013 12:52:25 AM 1247 Views
Re: Now that you mention it, appearance might indeed be useful. - 06/08/2013 06:59:26 AM 1195 Views
Re: Now that you mention it, appearance might indeed be useful. - 06/08/2013 10:01:18 AM 1217 Views
Re: Now that you mention it, appearance might indeed be useful. - 06/08/2013 12:56:47 PM 1294 Views
I didn't have anything either. *NM* - 06/08/2013 01:02:46 PM 738 Views
No, I'm sorry, I don't - 06/08/2013 02:33:58 PM 1237 Views
No appearance was described in my role message. *NM* - 06/08/2013 08:45:51 PM 731 Views
Nope. *NM* - 07/08/2013 07:23:00 PM 731 Views
No, nothing on appearance *NM* - 07/08/2013 09:02:11 PM 737 Views
I think we may need to contemplate some semi-random options - 06/08/2013 07:55:25 AM 1178 Views
List of remarks by the 'accused', plus some remarks on them - 06/08/2013 08:51:15 AM 1360 Views
explanation - 06/08/2013 09:05:55 AM 1245 Views
Re: explanation - 06/08/2013 09:47:35 AM 1235 Views
Re: explanation - 06/08/2013 09:59:45 AM 1268 Views
Re: explanation - 06/08/2013 01:28:49 PM 1207 Views
I'm just surprised I'm not on the list. I was always a low poster... - 06/08/2013 10:00:22 AM 1229 Views
Re: I'm just surprised I'm not on the list. I was always a low poster... - 07/08/2013 07:48:34 PM 1155 Views
Your questions - 06/08/2013 02:59:16 PM 1241 Views
I apparently answered your questions backwards - 06/08/2013 03:06:06 PM 1155 Views
I would look at it a bit differently, even if the outcome doesn't change that much - 06/08/2013 03:55:12 PM 1253 Views
Well, I'm impressed - 06/08/2013 04:11:31 PM 1155 Views
I thank you for the compliment. - 06/08/2013 09:51:54 PM 1214 Views
Re: I thank you for the compliment. - 07/08/2013 01:53:25 AM 1178 Views
Those are fair points - 07/08/2013 11:08:21 AM 1195 Views
Re: Those are fair points - 07/08/2013 01:01:55 PM 1208 Views
Oh dear, this is unfortunate. - 07/08/2013 09:46:26 PM 1233 Views
I think you just killed Beetnemesis *NM* - 07/08/2013 10:56:16 PM 708 Views
Better him than me . *NM* - 07/08/2013 11:16:29 PM 715 Views
Re: Oh dear, this is unfortunate. - 07/08/2013 11:32:12 PM 1162 Views
nice analysis - 07/08/2013 10:25:20 AM 1109 Views
Like I said before, Tables=Death - 06/08/2013 07:20:07 PM 1196 Views
Re: Like I said before, Tables=Death - 06/08/2013 08:22:47 PM 1120 Views
Beware of BAMF! (Out of town till Saturday) - 07/08/2013 03:37:36 PM 1130 Views
Re: Beware of BAMF! (Out of town till Saturday) - 07/08/2013 04:11:04 PM 1182 Views
Re: Beware of BAMF! (Out of town till Saturday) - 07/08/2013 04:43:12 PM 1183 Views
Re: Beware of BAMF! (Out of town till Saturday) - 07/08/2013 05:34:04 PM 1188 Views
He really is... - 07/08/2013 04:55:59 PM 1177 Views
Re: He really is... - 07/08/2013 08:36:44 PM 1218 Views
Hm, that's not quite what I was thinking when I said that - 08/08/2013 08:49:11 PM 1099 Views
BAMF? - 07/08/2013 06:31:59 PM 1146 Views
It's the onomatopoeia nightcrawler makes when he teleports - 07/08/2013 06:38:24 PM 1165 Views
Re: It's the onomatopoeia nightcrawler makes when he teleports - 07/08/2013 06:42:30 PM 1246 Views
Re: It's the onomatopoeia nightcrawler makes when he teleports - 07/08/2013 06:45:49 PM 1215 Views
When it comes to Marvel, it's Spidey and Deadpool all the way! X-Men. Pffft. - 07/08/2013 10:38:41 PM 1127 Views
Dr Doom was always my favorite hero in Marvel, but Deadpool is pretty cool *NM* - 07/08/2013 10:52:39 PM 691 Views
Dr Doom has cool costume, but other than that I don't know much about him. - 07/08/2013 11:37:09 PM 1152 Views
He's Marvel's Lex Luthor, only much cooler - 07/08/2013 11:48:00 PM 1096 Views
I'd actually say he's a bit more like Marvel's Superman than Marvel's Lex Luthor. - 07/08/2013 11:54:14 PM 1233 Views
I'm not a Marvel fan, but Doom is amazing. - 07/08/2013 11:52:09 PM 1138 Views
OK, here I am! Some layout analysis: - 07/08/2013 04:49:33 PM 1181 Views
Re: OK, here I am! Some layout analysis: - 07/08/2013 05:44:09 PM 1243 Views
Well, you obviously know something, so out with it - 07/08/2013 06:33:04 PM 1165 Views
With that in mind... sounds like I hit too close to home, and you got sensitive - 08/08/2013 03:10:50 AM 1212 Views
Vote: Beetnemesis, Are you accusing me of being scum for pointing out your post had no substance? - 08/08/2013 03:39:25 AM 1247 Views
Re: - 08/08/2013 06:30:26 AM 1146 Views
Granted, as you yourself pointed out: attack is the best defense - 08/08/2013 08:17:31 AM 1102 Views
How often do we even have SKs? *NM* - 08/08/2013 09:39:58 AM 797 Views
This pushes it over the edge for me too. - 08/08/2013 01:13:21 PM 1151 Views
Hah. You got prickly pretty quickly. - 08/08/2013 07:39:24 PM 1147 Views
Prickly? I'm not touchy about it just suspiscious - 08/08/2013 08:01:39 PM 1133 Views
Re: OK, here I am! Some layout analysis: - 07/08/2013 06:38:45 PM 1148 Views
My feeling is that a "normal" game is pretty easy to balance - 08/08/2013 03:08:09 AM 1135 Views
re - 07/08/2013 08:36:15 PM 1158 Views
Isn't it at the very least Roleclaim time? - 08/08/2013 04:31:26 PM 1191 Views
Re: Isn't it at the very least Roleclaim time? - 08/08/2013 05:44:54 PM 1168 Views
Re: Isn't it at the very least Roleclaim time? - 08/08/2013 07:51:09 PM 1205 Views
Re: Isn't it at the very least Roleclaim time? - 08/08/2013 08:02:45 PM 1171 Views
Re: Isn't it at the very least Roleclaim time? - 08/08/2013 08:05:52 PM 1285 Views
The thing we want to avoid is MASS roleclaim - 09/08/2013 08:30:32 AM 1106 Views
Okay, almost totally off topic but... - 07/08/2013 11:40:54 PM 1090 Views
The problem with that - 08/08/2013 08:09:56 AM 1180 Views
Re: The problem with that - 08/08/2013 05:02:56 PM 1132 Views
Reminds me of the Cairhien game a bit. - 08/08/2013 06:14:17 PM 1110 Views
That remains one of my favorites - 08/08/2013 07:48:42 PM 1149 Views
I haaaated the Cairhien game - 08/08/2013 08:16:57 PM 1170 Views
Re: That remains one of my favorites - 08/08/2013 09:42:25 PM 1123 Views
Does anyone else have any opinions? - 08/08/2013 05:51:23 PM 1133 Views
My take: - 08/08/2013 08:00:13 PM 1308 Views
Did you just admit to being a scummer? - 08/08/2013 08:04:21 PM 1189 Views
Hah, remember when I mentioned grasping at straws? - 08/08/2013 09:31:35 PM 1130 Views
We have always used the term that way, always, that and only that back to game 2 - 08/08/2013 09:44:20 PM 1189 Views
Holy crap, 4 years ago. - 09/08/2013 02:09:09 AM 1046 Views
That's when you asked and were told by the Moderator, it has come up since then many times - 09/08/2013 04:10:28 AM 1134 Views
I can't be the only person laughing at you right now - 09/08/2013 05:44:03 PM 1131 Views
I doubt anyone is laughing including yourself - 09/08/2013 06:08:41 PM 1054 Views
No, he's correct. - 08/08/2013 09:53:43 PM 1247 Views
Re: My take: - 08/08/2013 08:12:46 PM 1220 Views
To be a student of Isaac is a subtle thing - 08/08/2013 09:30:02 PM 1090 Views
sure - 08/08/2013 08:44:06 PM 1121 Views
Hmm, my thoughts, - 08/08/2013 08:56:27 PM 1224 Views
Re: Does anyone else have any opinions? - 08/08/2013 10:30:22 PM 1164 Views
Re: Does anyone else have any opinions? - 08/08/2013 11:18:56 PM 1229 Views
"Post count" usually acts as a tiebreaker - 09/08/2013 02:12:28 AM 1187 Views
I disagree - 09/08/2013 09:00:33 AM 1122 Views
Re: I disagree - 09/08/2013 11:25:29 AM 1098 Views
Several people have called for a roleclaim from beet - 09/08/2013 09:06:28 AM 1134 Views
I feel like I'm missing something really obvious here... - 09/08/2013 09:16:51 AM 1141 Views
Re: I feel like I'm missing something really obvious here... - 09/08/2013 03:18:38 PM 1198 Views
No, I meant entrails. - 09/08/2013 03:49:21 PM 1097 Views
Re: No, I meant entrails. - 09/08/2013 04:05:31 PM 1152 Views
Ah. Well that definitely explains it. *NM* - 09/08/2013 04:49:55 PM 707 Views
That's awesome. *NM* - 09/08/2013 09:21:59 PM 698 Views
Re: Does anyone else have any opinions? - 09/08/2013 11:48:13 AM 1093 Views
I'll point out that SKs were one of a few options I hypothesized - 09/08/2013 05:47:23 PM 1154 Views
Re: I'll point out that SKs were one of a few options I hypothesized - 09/08/2013 07:10:44 PM 1035 Views
OK, so the smiley was a typo - 09/08/2013 07:26:58 PM 1167 Views
I do, but - 09/08/2013 03:39:28 PM 1140 Views
RBIRL - 09/08/2013 05:50:21 AM 1140 Views
The case on Beetnemesis - 09/08/2013 05:05:32 PM 1260 Views
Ah good, time for a point-by-point rebuttal - 09/08/2013 06:04:11 PM 1170 Views
EBWOP: A final point - 09/08/2013 06:14:25 PM 1210 Views
Actually... - 09/08/2013 06:38:26 PM 1170 Views
I can't see any difference with Isaac's "aggressiveness". *NM* - 09/08/2013 07:31:28 PM 777 Views
Re: EBWOP: A final point - 09/08/2013 07:55:19 PM 1246 Views
Yet you still refuse to roleclaim, are you suicidal? - 09/08/2013 07:04:40 PM 1216 Views
Shrug, I have nothing against roleclaiming. Roleclaim: Tracker - 09/08/2013 07:33:40 PM 1153 Views
Correct me if wrong... - 09/08/2013 08:39:58 PM 1193 Views
Exactly! - 09/08/2013 11:06:25 PM 1205 Views
Wow, I'm gone for 24 hours, - 11/08/2013 12:02:38 AM 1181 Views
No, you just did everything you could to avoid it, like claiming almost no one had asked... - 09/08/2013 08:42:10 PM 1249 Views
I think you're right. - 09/08/2013 11:47:32 PM 1395 Views
Re: Yet you still refuse to roleclaim, are you suicidal? - 09/08/2013 07:49:12 PM 1162 Views
Re: Yet you still refuse to roleclaim, are you suicidal? - 09/08/2013 08:04:42 PM 1222 Views
too much mud - 09/08/2013 09:50:35 PM 1249 Views
Vote: Beetnemesis - 11/08/2013 10:32:51 AM 1334 Views
@ Mod, Vote Check - 11/08/2013 04:46:16 PM 1173 Views
That's a valid vote, I had missed it. Twilight pending. - 11/08/2013 05:36:13 PM 1130 Views
Actually, so did I. Did I hammer? - 11/08/2013 05:55:14 PM 1126 Views
Yes. *NM* - 11/08/2013 05:59:47 PM 597 Views
beetnemesis has been lynched. - 11/08/2013 05:52:43 PM 1229 Views

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