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Re: Yeah... DomA Send a noteboard - 07/07/2010 12:58:04 PM
Besides that, several clues indicate that Demandred was behind the Dragonsworn at first and later additionally controlled in Murandy (plus maybe Tarabon). To control so many groups/nations would be quite a feat!


What you don't get into your head Etzel is that Demandred would thus control NOTHING once the LB starts.

Not one of these groups will fight for the Shadow once TG starts and the foe is openly the Shadow. It's too late for an Andor-Murandy conflict. When TG starts - and it's a matter of weeks at most, Murandy would fall behind the Light. All Demandred would have accomplished is to organize and mobilize the country.

That was one of the huge flaws in the plans of Rahvin, Sammael and Be'lal, and Demandred thought their plans stupid. Stupid because building power bases like this attracted attention of both the Light and (perhaps even more dangerously) the other Chosen. Demandred was perfectly right... those three fell very early. Compare this strategy with the one of the two members of the trio we know about: Mesaana strictly hid behind Elaida, creating a conflict no one suspected the Shadow was behind. Semirhage placed herself near the leader of an invasion, a Return to unite the Westlands before TG. Expect Demandred to have done something similar and hide his power behind someone else, and someone else Rand believes to he his, not replicate the mistakes of the other three, by building an army that a) won't serve the Shadow willingly and b) will only attract attention.

As always, I really hate how you twist other people's theories to make them sound stupid (like you just did to me about Fain, when you knew very well I suggested Fain went to Lugard after WH, not before!). When you don't have real good arguments against a theory, you always fall back on this tactic of pretending to misinterpret it. This is extremely annoying.

And you've done it again about Demandred. No one who believe he's behind the BT ever pretended that's the only thing Demandred has ever done. We believe there was an opening to place Taim near Rand after his amnisty, and Demandred seized it (he convinced Taim to join the Shadow, to start with). And when Rand rather placed Taim in charge of recruiting and training, Demandred adapted his plan to get Taim to build him an army. And don't underestimate the power of an army of 100 very well trained male Dreadlords, combined with 200 BA (there were to be more, but thanks to Verin.... just looked what happened at the Algarin manor when channellers start using the really destructive stuff, just look what happened with the Seanchan in TPOD. Demandred's little army is more than a match for any army of non-channellers, even the biggest like the Bordermen's, or the forces Elayne has around Caemlyn. The only one with assets to stand up to that is Rand, if he doesn't keep scattering his channellers around in small groups the way he did recently.

My own idea is that Demandred has always kept his options open. He knew it was too early to open the hostilities, that what was truly important was the Last Battle, and watching your enemy. He's managed to gain pawns in every group Rand brought behind him, seizing opportunities as they appeared. Weiramon is very likely one of his pawns. He seems to have used Asunawa as well (not openly as a Forsaken, of course).

He's not behind Masema (which I suppose you call the "Dragonsworn";). The Dragonsworn on Almoth/Arad Doman are Graendal's doing, not Demandred's. As for Tarabon, your idea comes out of nowhere... it's Moghedien who was involved there, not Demandred. As for the civil war, it predates the release of the Forsaken, so if you insist for the Shadow to be involved (I don't think it's the case), it's Ishamael and his DF.

I frankly don't understand what makes you believe Demandred is behind Masema. Moiraine's the one responsible for making Masema stay in Ghealdan, Masema otherwise meant to follow Rand and preach, as he had begun doing with the Shienarans in the mountains. The Forsaken with any motive to have a madman gather a fanatical army as Rand advanced toward Tear was Lanfear, but Moiraine ruined this by sending the Shienarans to Ghealdan, and Lanfear obviously just gave up. Then, Galad's the one responsible for turning the disorders near the border into open conflict with the WC while Niall's the one who recalled the WC to Amadicia in the first place, and finally we know it's Suroth who had plans to use Masema (most likely an alliance to make Ghealdan fall behind the Seanchan without a fight). As for the "dragonsworn" troubles in the east, those have nothing to do with Demandred, it's a plan of Pedron Niall, for which he put Carridin in charge.

I'd say a lot suggests Demandred's global plan was to keep a close eye on Rand, and sabotage his efforts to gather allies, by systematically find moles who could betray Rand in the LB. He has pawns among the Tairens, Cairhienin, quite possibly the Aiel, the Sea Folk etc. And maybe a few in the Legion. And he's got Taim. His two allies were making sure (and one has failed at this) the two major military forces, the WT and Seanchan, wouldn't fall behind Rand.

Jordan even left us a clue Demandred gave Taim a seal, by revealing in a scene that Demandred had been hunting for the seals (and is probably the one who tried to recuperate the seal he had given Rand, and the other in Dobraine's care.. both attempts suggesting Demandred has indeed many well placed people in many groups involved with Rand).

As for not recognizing Flinn... there's nothing weird there. Demandred wasn't at "the farm" and his involvement with the BT is limited to some DF Asha'man. He was right to be surprised by the presence of Asha'man. Rand wasn't supposed to have any with him at that point. Demandred had no reason to recognize these men as Asha'man at a glance either. He would know them as men in black coats with pins. If you remember, Cadsuane's people forced the bonded Asha'man to dress normally and seized their pins.

The very names of Osan'gar and Aran'gar suggest the two missions are mirror of one another. Aran'gar was placed by Moridin in the middle of Mesaana's plans (and involved with the woman who was probably Alviarin's top agent in the rebellion and the one who had been ordered to try to seize control of it: Sheriam), without Mesaana being told about that for a long time. What's so strange about placing Osan'gar to watch Demandred's pawns at the BT. Moridin would have wanted to know what Demandred was really up to, and this was in a phase where Moridin was keeping his return and new authority a secret. He couldn't just go and order Demandred to tell him. He kept similar watch on Graendal and Sammael, hand in hand with Shaidar Haran.




This message last edited by DomA on 07/07/2010 at 01:05:02 PM
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It all began.... - 07/07/2010 11:49:39 AM 757 Views
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No, Etzel... - 07/07/2010 01:03:20 PM 604 Views
I disagree... - 07/07/2010 01:18:11 PM 538 Views
And besides... - 07/07/2010 01:49:04 PM 543 Views
Fain and Slayer - 07/07/2010 08:47:48 PM 513 Views
Fain playing a significant role in the LB would too much allude to LotR, IMO. *NM* - 07/07/2010 11:28:29 PM 498 Views
As would Moiraine returning. - 08/07/2010 02:13:25 AM 571 Views
It depends on Fain's role... - 08/07/2010 08:34:27 AM 430 Views
But what does "wildcard" really mean? - 08/07/2010 03:19:16 PM 442 Views
for a long time i thought shara and their tattooed channeles. - 09/07/2010 05:24:16 PM 450 Views
Fain doesn't make sense from a timing stand point - 07/07/2010 04:46:00 PM 491 Views
Indeed... - 08/07/2010 08:42:45 AM 456 Views
agreed - 09/07/2010 05:56:23 PM 423 Views
One reason the Murandy-New SL theory makes sense... - 07/07/2010 07:19:56 PM 449 Views
That's most likely just coincidence. *NM* - 07/07/2010 11:30:00 PM 214 Views
Riiiight... because WoT is chock full of coincidences. - 08/07/2010 02:12:47 AM 428 Views
In any case... - 08/07/2010 08:31:19 AM 477 Views
Re: That's most likely just coincidence. - 08/07/2010 02:13:36 AM 458 Views
They followed Fain all the way to Caemlyn and shot arrows at Rand - 08/07/2010 04:21:14 AM 424 Views
Yeah, I agree, Roedran isn't under Fain's control. *NM* - 08/07/2010 08:38:15 AM 306 Views
Re: It all began.... - 08/07/2010 12:11:02 PM 425 Views
Murandy just doesn't fit Demandred. Also, Sammael could have been wrong. - 07/07/2010 07:57:19 PM 685 Views
Here's another possibility - 08/07/2010 02:21:25 AM 523 Views
Another possibility for Demandred - 08/07/2010 03:20:27 AM 441 Views
What if Demandred's base is... - 08/07/2010 04:52:40 AM 470 Views
my problem with this - 08/07/2010 04:59:35 AM 458 Views
Well, I tend to agree with you - 09/07/2010 12:27:04 AM 413 Views
I doubt that you could that easily control the Madmen. *NM* - 08/07/2010 08:44:42 AM 191 Views
Unlikely... maybe even impossible - 08/07/2010 10:14:24 AM 446 Views
Definitely possible. - 08/07/2010 02:06:57 PM 439 Views
Now here's a man with... vision! - 09/07/2010 12:24:13 AM 416 Views
not really - 10/07/2010 12:25:31 PM 423 Views
That's factually incorrect - 12/07/2010 12:41:48 AM 458 Views
yes, factually incorrect by you - 12/07/2010 08:02:23 AM 479 Views
- 12/07/2010 04:40:45 PM 411 Views
I think Lanfears' estimation is incorrect. - 13/07/2010 04:15:44 PM 450 Views

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