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Re: Well... Cannoli Send a noteboard - 26/03/2013 11:54:42 PM

I suspect you mistook what I meant. You thought I spoke of the timeline jumping with Tam, right? I wasn't. I was speaking of characterization.

Nossy got what I was referring to with Uno. He was a Shienaran officer, second in command to Lord Ingtar. When he reached Salidar, Bryne spotted that and immediately made him an officer of his army, and asked him to train an heavy cavalry. He had Bryne's trust, it's Uno he placed in command of the Amyrlin's escort when she went to meet the noblemen in TPOD.

Another mistake is that Shienarans won't balk at taking the lead. Their tradition is that the complete chain is known by all, so that there's no question who will take command in battle should the officers fall in battle, all the way down to the last recruit.

Brandon forgot that, so his whole Uno arc in AMOL is based on misrepresenting Uno as common soldier and one Bryne wouldn't have thought was officer material. Starting with this continuity error, it could only run into a wall.

Actually, I think that mistake might be more understandable based on what Sanderson's level of comprehension of military culture might be. I always saw Uno as a more of a senior noncomissioned officer, who might in practice be second to the commander in authority and influence, but is junior to actual officers in official command. That would have explained how he and the other soldiers would accept Rand being promoted over him on the Great Hunt operation - Rand is simply another new officer/nobleman who commands, even while the expert soldiers handle the day-to-day stuff. Harnan, in the Band of the Red Hand would be another example, and the Seanchan woman who broke up the troops threatening the menagerie in the beginning of aCoS would be two other examples of the type (Mat noted that he would have easily given the woman a rank equivalent to a modern NCO). People more familiar with popular movies than the minutiae of military command might compare Uno's position to that of Harvey Keitel in "U-571," Robert Patrick in the recent TV show "Last Resort", Sam Elliot in "We Were Soldiers" and Nigel Green in "Zulu". In each case, there are younger and more inexperienced officers who outrank the named character, but officially have command authority over him (Mathew McConaghey, the main female character, Chris Klein & Michael Caine, respectively). This was probably the case with Uno, where he could be comfortable handling a dozen or so soldiers, or when someone else is in charge, like Ingtar, Moiraine or Rand, but it would also explain how dedicated, disciplined professional Shienaran soldiers would let Maseema run wild. Uno lacked real command authority when they were left to their own devices, even he had been the one to enforce discipline when they had a nominal commander. Without an officer or noble and no sense of mission, they felt like they were no longer on duty and let their obediance slip. Another aspect of Moiraine's leadership failures, and why the characters had to move beyond her at the time.

On the other hand, Sanderson did miss the subsequent developments you cited, where he should have moved on and accepted his new role as an officer. Though to be fair, all we have seen him doing are the sort of tasks which can be and frequently are performed by senior NCOs, like leading an escort or training recruits. His officer role is contingent on Egwene's expositional reliability when she identifies Uno as the commander of the army's heavy cavalry - if he is in fact their commander, he should be an officer. Or she might be making the same mistake Rand did back in tGH when he cited Uno as Ingtar's second: in each case a practical assessment of his de facto function overlooks a procedural distinction in the chain of command.

It is still an error of Sanderson's part, but either in his failure to clarify Uno's role and official position or in his failure to take into account his developments off-screen. Since he did the latter with Aviendha (having her suddenly discover issues and problems she had correctly diagnosed and anticipated as far back as book 5) it is very plausible that he might do the same thing with Uno. On the other hand, I kind of had the impression he understood military stuff, so it could simply be his failure to properly convey the character issues too.


It's a very similar mistake with Tam. His reluctance to lead Perrin's armies and that Perrin's commanders might not follow him willingly was a continuity error.

In KOD, Perrin fetched Tam and made him the commander of all his forces. Arganda had initially balked at Perrin naming a First Captain to command them (he was expecting some TR farmer with no experience, I would guess), but then Tam entered the tent and Perrin gave them his name, which they recognized (obviously Tam has some sort of reputation from having been second in command of the elite Illianer Companions, veteran in the WC wars and Aiel war, in which Arganda fought, and perhaps for being a blademaster, and perhaps for bearing the same name as Rand...). Tam is unflappable, as usual not one bit impressed by the nobles. He merely comments curtly the battle plans look fine. Arganda then tells Perrin "If that's your First Captain, I have no more objections", which gives a measure of Tam's reputation. Perrin thinks wryly that Arganda had plenty of objections to offer before knowing his First Captain was Tam al'Thor.

In AMOL, Perrin as he leaves makes Tam his commander all over again, when he already held that position and the title of First Captain since KOD, and when Tam acting out of character balks and fears the other won't follow him (when they had previously been quite happy to do so), Perrin made him a lord.


It could be simple ignorance, since in KoD, Perrin is expressing doubts about the Cleansing, saying that Grady & Neald claimed it was clean, but he did not see how that could be. Then in tGS, he says to Grady "if you say it's clean, that's good enough for me." This is the same Grady who, in LoC, was talking about going home to his farm that his father was taking care of while he was gone, and in Sanderson's books, became an Asha'man because his now-dead father had been a channeler. It could very well be that Sanderson just skipped a lot of details in his "re-read" before writing.


Brandon did some good things with Tam, but this whole thing about leadership and giving him a title of nobility (which only Elayne most likely could give anyway), a kind of replay of what happened to Perrin and was "cute" but broke with his character and the continuity.
Which is exactly what some of us WoT nerds are most interested in, hence Sanderson "ruining" the series for us. I think a large part of why aMoL went down so much better than ToM was that, in addition to the heavy action content playing to Sanderson's strengths, we were immunized or callused and had given up on expecting WoT-type writing from these books, so it was able to meet lower expectations.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Re: I'm not the most attentive or critical of readers... - 23/03/2013 05:10:41 AM 902 Views
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Can you mention some specific examples of problems with Mat? - 23/03/2013 04:56:36 PM 822 Views
Some of it was before AMOL - 23/03/2013 11:33:22 PM 877 Views
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Please give a few examples..... *NM* - 24/03/2013 04:09:28 PM 354 Views
Re: Please give a few examples..... - 25/03/2013 07:23:01 PM 1041 Views
Re: Please give a few examples..... - 25/03/2013 07:45:26 PM 833 Views
Same here. - 25/03/2013 09:59:56 PM 851 Views
Well, part of the problem with Uno IS from way back when. - 26/03/2013 12:01:46 AM 857 Views
Well... - 26/03/2013 06:02:11 PM 958 Views
Re: Well... - 26/03/2013 11:54:42 PM 864 Views
Knowing how fast Sanderon's "re-read" was, it's no surprise - 27/03/2013 05:03:37 PM 875 Views
Thanks for the well done and detailed reply.....but I must admit..... - 26/03/2013 02:53:02 AM 884 Views
Re: His ability to write RJ's characters "correctly"..... - 01/05/2013 12:07:48 AM 805 Views

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