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Was her death not redemptive? Did she not admit Rand was right about the Seals? Joel Send a noteboard - 05/09/2013 04:02:09 AM

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So is the fact she did not prevent Rand breaking the Seals.

I may be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure you said her death would be redemptive, after she is completely humiliated and cut down to size. What happened was pretty far from that.

Same with the Seals. As far as Merrilor goes, she did prevent Rand from breaking the Seals. She was given complete responsibility for them, and the decision on when to break them was hers to make. And as she stated quite clearly, she would only break them if she decided they needed to be broken at all. As such, Rand entered Shayol Ghul without the Seals broken, which was quite contrary to his plan.

Now, I'd be the first the agree that Sanderson botched the execution of Egwene realizing that the Seals had to be broken and connecting the dots between her dream and her research from the Tower's archives. We got a stupid throwaway line that was easy to miss in the midst of all the battle-porn we were subjected to. That doesn't change the fact that your prediction that Egwene would be forced to give on the Seals issue was spectacularly wrong.


Her dispute with Rand was always whether the Seals should be broken at all, not when; until AMoL she never admitted he MIGHT be right except as a last resort and for the sake of argument, so she could create a delay to later make diversion. Yet that diversion was itself diverted when she accepted he was actually about the Breaking itself, if not the timing. That made her sacrificial death, with the knowledge it prevented defeat without ensuring victory, quite redemptive. In that respect I would say (at the risk of sending Cannoli into a blind rage ) she was a better Christ figure than Rand, because not only was her death sacrificial but she herself was "obedient unto death," to the Pattern if only tacitly to Rand as Dragon Reborn.

When and why she admits Rand was right and she wrong is irrelevant to whether she DID. No, she was not humiliated, but I only said she would be completely broken if she defiantly and stubbornly refused to accept and admit the inevitable: That Rand was right the Seals must be broken sooner or later. She made that acceptance and admission, itself somewhat humbling just as her "supporting sacrifice," thus averting the need to treat her to Elaidas fate.

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This message last edited by Joel on 08/09/2013 at 01:10:01 PM
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I Would Like It Noted for the Record I Was Right on Egwenes Fate/Progression; Twice, Actually Joel - 28/08/2013 11:41:11 PM 2116 Views
And I was wrong ßelals Girl - 29/08/2013 05:41:36 AM 1037 Views
I read somewhere one should hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Joel - 29/08/2013 10:18:18 AM 1145 Views
Gawyn matured? Fanatic-Templar - 30/08/2013 05:05:11 AM 917 Views
Yes; he grew beyond "I can ignore the rules and everyone must obey me because I know best." Joel - 30/08/2013 06:18:22 AM 1085 Views
Because that's clearly Egwene's job, and there wasn't room for two of them in that relationship *NM* ßelals Girl - 30/08/2013 02:01:53 PM 490 Views
Essentially; maybe he did not so much mature as bow to the absurd. Joel - 30/08/2013 03:35:51 PM 958 Views
That was never an issue. Fanatic-Templar - 30/08/2013 05:19:43 PM 1169 Views
I cannot decide whether I agree or not. Joel - 02/09/2013 05:47:39 AM 1077 Views
And his character...development, for lack of a better word...in ToM appeared forgotten in aMoL Cannoli - 05/09/2013 01:01:06 AM 1026 Views
Maybe death was a release from having to carry self-important harridans on their quests for power Cannoli - 05/09/2013 01:10:41 AM 1048 Views
Maybe Joel - 05/09/2013 01:39:10 AM 1014 Views
That's one opinion... fionwe1987 - 04/09/2013 06:06:15 PM 999 Views
Her death is a matter of fact, or fictional fact anyway. Joel - 04/09/2013 09:25:30 PM 957 Views
That wasn't what you predicted, though... fionwe1987 - 05/09/2013 02:49:06 AM 948 Views
Was her death not redemptive? Did she not admit Rand was right about the Seals? Joel - 05/09/2013 04:02:09 AM 927 Views
Re: Was her not death not redemptive? Did she not admit Rand was right about the Seals? gban007 - 08/09/2013 05:14:32 AM 1335 Views
Re: Was her not death not redemptive? Did she not admit Rand was right about the Seals? Dunstan - 17/11/2013 02:36:21 PM 1063 Views
Re: Was her not death not redemptive? Did she not admit Rand was right about the Seals? gban007 - 19/11/2013 02:25:14 AM 931 Views
Wow, you predicted a plot progression in a predictable and completely worthless series of books. Tom - 05/09/2013 04:08:38 AM 927 Views
Doubtless his middle school English teacher would be proud. *NM* Larry - 05/09/2013 04:11:12 AM 917 Views
Hey, c'mon, without the The Wheel of Time ya'll could not be here gracing us with your erudition. Joel - 05/09/2013 04:41:46 AM 867 Views
Y'all, Texan, y'all. Not a badly constructed contraction of "you will". Sheesh. Larry - 05/09/2013 05:01:19 AM 1340 Views
Numerous sources attest to "ya'll" in both Faulkner and Hemingway. Joel - 05/09/2013 05:36:31 AM 998 Views
Yes, and Faulkner in particular was known for his non-orthodox orthography Larry - 05/09/2013 07:17:47 AM 1454 Views
"Non-orthodox" is a somewhat unorthodox spelling as well; does that invalidate it? Joel - 05/09/2013 11:05:57 PM 1421 Views
No, that was a late night spelling mistake - unorthodox is what I meant Larry - 07/09/2013 08:42:12 AM 1643 Views
It is not worthless, and that particular progression was not predictable enough for anyone else. Joel - 05/09/2013 04:34:11 AM 943 Views
I recall not caring about camps, or Jordan generally. Tom - 05/09/2013 03:06:43 PM 891 Views
Yet here we are. Joel - 05/09/2013 10:56:31 PM 1062 Views
I just check this board in hopes there will be an announcement that it will be closed. *NM* Tom - 07/09/2013 02:16:12 AM 452 Views
Same here, except it applies to the rest of the site as well. *NM* Larry - 07/09/2013 08:42:41 AM 809 Views
Pretty edgy for a Bush League Pedant. Dan - 14/09/2013 02:04:32 PM 1135 Views
Nah, I cannot quite be the asshole to your santorum, alas! Larry - 14/09/2013 06:02:41 PM 1429 Views
Ha! Dan - 22/09/2013 02:25:18 AM 1015 Views
Re: I Would Like It Noted for the Record I Was Right on Egwenes Fate/Progression; Twice, Actually RugbyPlayingAshaman - 25/10/2013 05:03:59 PM 1014 Views
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