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Re: The more I look at this the more I think you are both right and wrong Sidious Send a noteboard - 16/01/2016 05:57:39 AM

1. Quantity of strength and Dexterity always equal each other out. Honestly I think this is a huge problem that RJ created because it implies that the strongest man is roughly equal to the strongest woman because RJ noted that there was nothing that could be accomplished with one side of the power that the other side could not match to the same degree. However, there is nothing to say that Lanfear can do everything to the same degree that Ishamael could do (or vice-versa). Only that if an effect of xx intensity could be accomplished by any channeler using saidin then there was a channeler using saidar that could match the effect. Thus we have Naeff who with less strength can match Nynaeve in effects related to Air.

Well he did say in separate quotes that the strongest possible woman can do what the strongest possible man can to the same degree in general. He even said that in fight it would be equal.


2. Flow strengths are ignored in all of these effectiveness models. Again, we have no sense of Lanfear or Semirhage's or Alivia's flow affinities and it's probable that Graendal has great strength in Spirit, thus her skill with Compulsion. No one has ever even come close to matching Egwene's affinity for Earth, but it's clear that there is a male equivalent out there somewhere, but his strength level seems utterly unrelated to his potential ability to make Cuendillar to the degree that Egwene can. He could be a level ++1 male or he could be a level 66 male or anything in between for all we know.

It's potentially a mess. Remember that 100 represents a male channeler of ++1 or a female of level 1. It doesn't factor anything about flow strengths. At the same time flow strengths haven't been well elaborated on. Egwene is perhaps a great example of female extreme strength in Earth, but how does this compare to Ash'aman strength in Earth? My guess is that the males mostly have her level of strength in Earth, it's merely been elaborated on in her because she is a main character. For instance, Naeff is one of those rare men strong in Air and it seems like he holds himself on the level with a woman to the point that it makes no difference. It's not like Aes Sedai are watching him in awe.

Most channelers are strong in about two flows. We have seen Moiraine struggle with Earth and Fire, but she's strong with Air and Water - but does this mean that she is strong in those two or average? The men will be the opposite, which makes me think that effective strength will be a male using Fire/Earth/Spirit to get what he needs and a woman using Water/Air/Spirit - which is why the two sexes aren't directly comparable.

Therefore I think two theories are possible. It's possible that being strong in more flows can raise your effective strength. Maybe Egwene's effective strength is 95 if she is strong in all the flows, but I don't think so. Just because she can use anything easily doesn't mean she's stronger - a male or female of her power will merely find another way. The task at hand will therefore be completed either way.

It's more likely that 100 really is 100. I've never seen a strong channeler struggle with any flow. Rand uses Air and Water liberally and without issue. Alivia's first flow against Cyndane was Earth, and both Cyndane and Lanfear used Fire as their primary attacks. It seems like a minor issue to major channelers. I suspect strength in the flows becomes more important when it comes to small tasks rather than large ones.


3. Talents are also ignored in effectiveness scales. Look at Healing. We know that Semirhage has a dramatically powerful Talent, but does that automatically mean that only a ++1 male with an equal Talent can match her? Or, as we see with Androl, is it possible for a very weak male with a dramatic Talent to match the effectiveness of Semrihage's Healing? Traveling is one that often gets used as an example to compare relative strength, but I think it's obvious that there is simply a minimum amount of OP (either saidin or saidar) to accomplish the weave. The Talent then determines the size or ability to position or block the gateway etc... Nynaeve has shown a relative lack of effectiveness in Shielding, despite her great strength.

Talents should be ignored. By definition they are rare and cannot be used to gauge effective strength, unless as you've done, you make a Healing strength table, but there's not much point to that unless you're hiring people for the Yellow ajah. Asmodean's statement about Semirhage and the weather implies that all channelers are good at things and bad at things. Even Rand can't Heal well. Therefore it's an equalizer, so Talents should be discounted.


4. Skill. It's seems clear that Moghedien and Asmodean are the least skilled in the OP of the Forsaken, I believe that would make her less effective than Be'lal even though they are in theory at the same level of relative ability just as I think Asmodean would not be nearly as effective as Graendal despite what should be parity.

It's possible that someone like Demandred could have an effective strength of 120 because of skill and practice. LTT and Demandred seem to be totally out there compared to other people even from their own Age. There's no doubt that Alivia could be defeated by weaker channelers.


So basically I think your effective strength levels are pretty accurate, but only in a very broad sense. In general a Level 1 woman should be as effective as a Level ++1 man, but there are likely massive swings in what each could accomplish based on flow affinities and Talents. In kind I think it's very possible for a (as an example) Level 3 woman of great skill and multiple flow affinities to be far more effective than a Level ++1 male who perhaps was less skilled or possessed weakness in some flows.

Well as I explained, maybe not so much. It seems that if you are reasonably trained and your strength is 100 then you are probably at 100 effectively. Talents aside, it's unlikely that someone being strong in other flows could be better. A woman weaker than Rand can make a bigger Air bridge, but he can probably perform other feats that Lanfear could not. Therefore it's understandable that RJ roughly equated them. It's likely that a good mixed circle of two is so much better than even Rand.


personally I think you'd have to re-rank this for each flow and for each Talent to get a true sense of effectiveness (which is inherently situational IMO)

As I said, I don't think so. Considering most women are strong in Air/Water, I don't see how their effective strength increases if they are suddenly strong in Fire/Earth unless it comes down to fireball throwing, and even then a normal woman can throw a big fireball, it just takes more concentration. To measure channeler effectiveness you would probably have to take Semirhage and Rand and make them do twenty things with the Power. Rand would exceed Semirhage in 10 and vice versa, but both could do better than what their respective sexes could achieve, so they get 100. Talents aside of course.

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