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The more I look at this the more I think you are both right and wrong darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 12/01/2016 09:02:57 PM

I think the sticking point I keep coming to is the question of "what is effective strength"

I think you've done an exceptional job of piecing together a general mapping of power levels and where an individual should fall in terms of comparative effectiveness, but overall I keep coming back to things that throw the proverbial monkey wrench into the thought that effectiveness even exists.

Let's consider some of the thoughts here:

  1. Quantity of strength and Dexterity always equal each other out. Honestly I think this is a huge problem that RJ created because it implies that the strongest man is roughly equal to the strongest woman because RJ noted that there was nothing that could be accomplished with one side of the power that the other side could not match to the same degree. However, there is nothing to say that Lanfear can do everything to the same degree that Ishamael could do (or vice-versa). Only that if an effect of xx intensity could be accomplished by any channeler usingsaidinthen there was a channeler usingsaidarthat could match the effect. Thus we have Naeff who with less strength can match Nynaeve in effects related to Air.

  2. Flow strengths are ignored in all of these effectiveness models. Again, we have no sense of Lanfear or Semirhage's or Alivia's flow affinities and it's probable that Graendal has great strength in Spirit, thus her skill with Compulsion. No one has ever even come close to matching Egwene's affinity for Earth, but it's clear that there is a male equivalent out there somewhere, but his strength level seems utterly unrelated to his potential ability to make Cuendillar to the degree that Egwene can. He could be a level ++1 male or he could be a level 66 male or anything in between for all we know.

  3. Talents are also ignored in effectiveness scales. Look at Healing. We know that Semirhage has a dramatically powerful Talent, but does that automatically mean that only a ++1 male with an equal Talent can match her? Or, as we see with Androl, is it possible for a very weak male with a dramatic Talent to match the effectiveness of Semrihage's Healing? Traveling is one that often gets used as an example to compare relative strength, but I think it's obvious that there is simply a minimum amount of OP (eithersaidinorsaidar) to accomplish the weave. The Talent then determines the size or ability to position or block the gateway etc... Nynaeve has shown a relative lack of effectiveness in Shielding, despite her great strength.

  4. Skill. It's seems clear that Moghedien and Asmodean are the least skilled in the OP of the Forsaken, I believe that would make her less effective than Be'lal even though they are in theory at the same level of relative ability just as I think Asmodean would not be nearly as effective as Graendal despite what should be parity.

So basically I think your effective strength levels are pretty accurate, but only in a very broad sense. In general a Level 1 woman should be as effective as a Level ++1 man, but there are likely massive swings in what each could accomplish based on flow affinities and Talents. In kind I think it's very possible for a (as an example) Level 3 woman of great skill and multiple flow affinities to be far more effective than a Level ++1 male who perhaps was less skilled or possessed weakness in some flows.


Character effective strengths are therefore: ((66 - character level + 1) x 1.5)

100 - Ishamael, Rand, Rahvin, Lanfear, Semirhage, Alivia

98.5 - Demandred, Aginor, Sammael, Sharina, Talaan, Graendal, Mesaana, Cyndane, Logain.

97 - Asmodean, Balthamel, Graendal, Nynaeve

95.5 - Moghedien, Someryn, Be'lal

88.5 - Egwene, Elayne

87 - Cadsuane

84 - Aviendha

81 - Moiraine, Elaida, Siuan, Romanda, Lelaine

72 - Berenicia (minimum level to effectively Travel)

48 - Siuan (post-stilling)

33 - Daigian

15 - Sorilea (and minimum strength to lift a feather with Air)

1.5 - Moiraine (post Finns)


personally I think you'd have to re-rank this for each flow and for each Talent to get a true sense of effectiveness (which is inherently situational IMO)

so it would hypothetically look like this:

Healing

100 Semrihage, Nynaeve
90 Samitsu, Damer
50 Moiraine
10 Egwene, Elayne

Earth

100 Egwene
70 Leane

Air

100 Naeff

Spirit

100 Graendal

Traveling

100 Androl
90 Rand, Semirhage
80 Logain

Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
This message last edited by darius_sedai on 12/01/2016 at 09:06:37 PM
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The more I look at this the more I think you are both right and wrong - 12/01/2016 09:02:57 PM 779 Views

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