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Re: That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question Sidious Send a noteboard - 14/02/2016 09:31:21 AM

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View original postApparently same-sex relationships are accepted in WOT as a matter of course, and racism is completely nonexistent. RJ's quotes state as much, too.

Now, I'm thinking that this is a remnant from the more enlightened Age of Legends, where such things probably truly were nonexistent. But isn't it a bit implausible? We're treated to a lot of other signs of provincial attitudes (2rivers initial hostility to strangers) and outright xenophobia (Aiel) and since black people appear fairly rare in the main continent, I would expect some prejudice at least. Or maybe a character wondering if a random Sea Folk person was badly sunburnt or something.


Homophobia, and to a degree racism, is rooted in religion, especially in religions like Christianity and Islam. These don't exist in Randland and no one ever said 'guys can't be together' in some tome from the AOL, so homophobia never started.

Discrimination always has a chronological but usually senseless origin. Rand has encountered 'racism' for looking like an Aielman because of his red hair. That came from the war with the Aiel as well as the general 'barbarism' witnessed by people when they met the Aiel.


This point might be more suited to the CMB, but: Even if we presume [your bigotry here] comes from religion simply because 1) they are common in religions and 2) both originated in prehistory, that still does not explain why religions THEMSELVES would incorporate bigotry in the first place.

The most logical and likely explanation is that bigotry arose from prehistoric TRIBALISM, either in concert with or independently of religion. Homophobia and racism are prime candidates because separate local tribes (i.e. races) were direct and mortal competitors with ones own, and infertile mating impairs competition with rival tribes. That may seem and even be trivial now, but when the GLOBAL population was less than a large modern city (as was true for most of human existence) and production levels FAR below current ones, such issues were existential ones. Religions developed in that period could not help but reflect that--any religion that did NOT would have been at best superfluous and at worst an existential threat in its own right. To say that makes religion the SOURCE of bigotry is like calling religion the source of clothing: While some religions make the claim, that most likely reflects those religions attempting to vicariously GAIN legitimacy by endorsing PREEXISTING sentiments generally perceived as positive ALREADY, not CREATING them in the first place.

Again, this might be more of a CMB point, but I suspect that is how most bigotry arose, and (with the possible exception of homophobia) why most of it persists. To take another example, women simply never worked by choice prior to about a century ago, so one could take for granted that any and all women who DID work were socioeconomically vulnerable to exploitation, just as minority races and religions were (and are) vulnerable to the more numerous and wealthy racial and religious majority whose numbers, wealth and dominance had been inseparably linked from the start. Even in the extreme colonial examples, there is a good argument that local tribalism prevented a unified response to European colonization that progressively seized control by playing native groups off against each other while subjugating (or eradicating) them individually.

More simply: No religion every caused any of humanitys problems, but all religions seek to remedy (while too often reflecting) all humanitys problems. I submit that the solution to that problem is spending more time listening to God and less trying to put our words in His mouth (by no coincidence, I believe most religious doctrines at least nominally argue the same.)


Joel the Bible is outright homophobic. It is from this that homophobia stems in modern Christian society. If you look at the current Republican movements then the move against gay marriage is because of the need for these voters to follow biblical principles, on both marriage and homosexuality. The candidates say it directly. If you think that religion has never caused any of humanities problems then you are completely out of touch with history. Christianity and Islam are the principle reasons for the subjugation of women. The Catholic church will still not recognize women as priests.

While all religions do promote being a good human being as their base, most religions also have direct laws related to men, women, sexual relationships, race, slavery, food and other issues. Conservative Christians clutch to books such as Deuteronomy and completely ignore the vastly more important principles in the New Testament. The same can be said against Islam that is essentially peaceful, but there are once again rigid laws that people cling to and kill for.

There is nothing wrong with Christianity per se, it's the followers of the religion who pervert it and create hell on earth.

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true - 05/01/2016 04:44:26 PM 984 Views
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Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 08:07:06 PM 1044 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 10:21:16 PM 1116 Views
Agreed - 09/01/2016 11:07:13 PM 818 Views
Re: Agreed - 09/01/2016 11:24:50 PM 873 Views
Exactly - 09/01/2016 11:42:14 PM 813 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 11:13:22 PM 733 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 11:33:54 PM 1038 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 12:12:01 AM 856 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 09:23:46 PM 797 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 10:25:12 PM 832 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 11/01/2016 06:11:37 PM 956 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 11/01/2016 06:04:00 AM 1110 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 02:25:21 PM 1399 Views
What Logain quote are you referencing? *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:07:57 PM 443 Views
Logain stated that Rand is stronger than him because he makes larger Gateways *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:24:34 PM 462 Views
Oh I thought he was referencing a homophobic comment! *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:43:48 PM 522 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 16/01/2016 02:44:01 AM 1178 Views
That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 08/02/2016 11:52:11 AM 989 Views
Re: That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 13/02/2016 03:52:18 AM 921 Views
Jordans world lacks a God or religions? - 13/02/2016 04:57:10 PM 1070 Views
Re: Jordans world lacks a God or religions? - 14/02/2016 09:33:18 AM 1196 Views
Just because Randland is Deist does not make it deity-free. - 14/02/2016 01:59:58 PM 1092 Views
It is better to say there is no organized religion - 14/02/2016 10:12:35 PM 899 Views
That sounds about right - 15/02/2016 11:21:42 AM 898 Views
Perhaps, but perhaps not - 16/02/2016 01:26:46 AM 897 Views
A non-deity Creator is a distinction without a difference - 16/02/2016 03:52:24 AM 1036 Views
I don't think I'm making my point clear - 17/02/2016 02:36:51 AM 753 Views
Re: That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 14/02/2016 09:31:21 AM 1129 Views
Not disputing any of that - 15/02/2016 11:52:45 AM 877 Views
How did Narg learn the common tongue? Is he just smart? *NM* - 11/01/2016 11:30:49 PM 409 Views
He was one of the smarter Trollocs, yeah - 11/01/2016 11:45:54 PM 809 Views

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