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Sorry Darius, but there's a lot of mistakes there... fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 20/02/2016 06:18:16 AM

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There is no religion in WOT. There is a general sense from the individuals in the WOT world that there is a sentient (although there is no proof of actual sentience) being who created them. There is also an "evil" force that clearly has sentience. None of is means there is an actual deity. The Dark One might wish to become a deity, but more likely seems to be a nihilist.

Let us unpack this: you think there's a chance the Creator isn't real. Within WoT, though, absolutely no one argues that the Creator isn't a sentient deity who created everything. Lets say you're right. By that logic, can an atheist in our world say: I believe God doesn't exist. Yes, Christians and Hindus and Muslims do, but since I'm right, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc. are not religions?

I think religions are fundamentally defined by the belief of its followers. Christians believe a set of tenets and stories. They're almost certainly not real, but that doesn't take away the fact that Christianity is a religion.

Similarly, even IF the Creator is merely a myth/legend, the unified belief of everyone in the existence of the Creator makes it clear there IS religion in WoT. It just has no organization, lacks a priestly class, and generally tends to have no precepts on human behavior.


I see nothing in that which inherently means the "Creator" or the "Dark One" truly had anything to do with creation ... One of the main points RJ hit on throuhghout the series dealt with myth becoming legend in a never ending loop. What 3rd age WOT people discuss as the Creator could very well be some form of deity, but could just as easily be completely non-sentient, or an early myth with roots in the very real OP before man could comprehend what that force was.

Possibly, but that doesn't quite explain the Voice that spoke to Rand on two instances.
The DO could as easily be a human who discovered some alternate power source ...

He was, in early drafts of EotW, but this is just not true in the main series. Rand faced him in aMoL, and the Dark One is clearly an entity not some human with immense power. Rand literally holds all of the Dark One in his "hands". Kinda makes it hard to say he was still deluded and believing in myths.


We are given zero explaination of how the DO truly came into existence.

I think the idea is that anyone familiar with Manichean religions would be very comfortable with the "how". The Creator and the Dark One precede Creation. They are elemental forces with sentience. As such, "how did they come to be" has no answer, just as there isn't one in other religions which have such deities.
But the closest parallel seems to be from the Zoroastrian myths of Ahrura Mazda and Ahriman, which most of humanity today believes to be nothing more than ancient man putting context into creation. No reason to believe RJs construct of the Creator and the Dark One is anything more than elaborate myth.

So by this logic, since no one doubts Zoroastrianism is a religion (one still practiced in India, btw), there IS a religion in WoT, right? Only, it is far more widespread.
We know the 2nd Agers didn't believe in any sort of deity until the Dark One was freed and showed sentience. But that doesn't prove that the Creator is either sentient or a Deity.

Sorry, but Lanfear, at least, seems to believe in the Creator. Further, the Second Agers spoke most of the Prophesies of the Dragon, which certainly mention the Creator.

And there's this, from Rand's visions in the Waste:


“What good is your Foretelling,” Oselle was almost shouting, “if you cannot tell us when?” Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. “The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!”

Dark-eyed Deindre faced her with a more usual calm. “I am not the Creator. I can only tell you what I Foretell.”


Further, several glossaries mention the Creator and the Dark One, and they are always referred to as actual deities, the sources of good and evil, and of the One and True Powers. I fail to see any evidence that RJ wanted us to question the existence of either as a real deity. And whether he did or not doesn't have much bearing on whether there is any religion in WoT.

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Re: Is there confirmation of who sent the 100,000 trollocs? EDIT - 04/01/2016 11:10:54 AM 1335 Views
true - 05/01/2016 04:44:26 PM 1108 Views
Re: true - 09/01/2016 10:15:07 PM 1249 Views
Could she have sent the Trollocs without Moridin knowing though? - 09/01/2016 10:49:44 PM 1189 Views
I think it was Demandred. Verin gave the hint in KOD actually. - 04/03/2016 09:59:36 PM 1729 Views
I wonder how crazy Rand was? - 03/01/2016 11:51:42 PM 1261 Views
I'm going with pretty damn crazy - 05/01/2016 04:47:19 PM 1320 Views
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Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 08:07:06 PM 1179 Views
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Agreed - 09/01/2016 11:07:13 PM 941 Views
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Exactly - 09/01/2016 11:42:14 PM 932 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 11:13:22 PM 853 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 09/01/2016 11:33:54 PM 1163 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 12:12:01 AM 1070 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 09:23:46 PM 934 Views
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Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 11/01/2016 06:04:00 AM 1299 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 10/01/2016 02:25:21 PM 1588 Views
What Logain quote are you referencing? *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:07:57 PM 522 Views
Logain stated that Rand is stronger than him because he makes larger Gateways *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:24:34 PM 537 Views
Oh I thought he was referencing a homophobic comment! *NM* - 11/01/2016 06:43:48 PM 590 Views
Re: Where's the racism and homophobia in WOT? - 16/01/2016 02:44:01 AM 1373 Views
That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 08/02/2016 11:52:11 AM 1121 Views
Re: That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 13/02/2016 03:52:18 AM 1045 Views
Jordans world lacks a God or religions? - 13/02/2016 04:57:10 PM 1187 Views
Re: Jordans world lacks a God or religions? - 14/02/2016 09:33:18 AM 1365 Views
Just because Randland is Deist does not make it deity-free. - 14/02/2016 01:59:58 PM 1198 Views
It is better to say there is no organized religion - 14/02/2016 10:12:35 PM 1014 Views
That sounds about right - 15/02/2016 11:21:42 AM 1007 Views
Perhaps, but perhaps not - 16/02/2016 01:26:46 AM 993 Views
A non-deity Creator is a distinction without a difference - 16/02/2016 03:52:24 AM 1171 Views
I don't think I'm making my point clear - 17/02/2016 02:36:51 AM 864 Views
Sorry Darius, but there's a lot of mistakes there... - 20/02/2016 06:18:16 AM 981 Views
Re: That is a big logical leap, and dodges rather than answering the question - 14/02/2016 09:31:21 AM 1301 Views
Not disputing any of that - 15/02/2016 11:52:45 AM 983 Views
How did Narg learn the common tongue? Is he just smart? *NM* - 11/01/2016 11:30:49 PM 479 Views
He was one of the smarter Trollocs, yeah - 11/01/2016 11:45:54 PM 980 Views

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